50-100 hand

[The Gift Of Gab]

3- or 4-handed. Folded to me in the SB and I make it 300 with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. KKF calls in the BB. I have about 17000 and he covers.

Flop A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet 600 and he calls.

Turn T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet 1800 and he makes it 5600. I call 3800.

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Pot is 13000. I have about 10500 left and go all-in.

[Yeti]

Did you consider shoving the turn?

[The Gift Of Gab]

Yes, but I don't think it would have worked often enough.

[Yeti]

I really like your line. This way is indeed probably better than shoving the turn, seeing as you have around half the deck to fire out on.

[lapoker17]

I would think there was very little FE at that point on the turn - Which to me means that check/call turn or c/r turn all-in are superior.

[durrrr]

I like it. About what do you think KKF needs to call GoG?

[Jason Strasser]

I'm going to guess you aren't representing a set because I feel like most of the time you are going to be jamming it on the turn.... Using the logic that led you to conclude that a reraise AI on the turn wont work often enough (ie, you expect a call so you push a big hand and your opponent may be drawing and has either high card queen or a insta call hand on the river which is not a good spot for you out of position)...

So, I'm going to guess you are representing a flush here or 89 or some other flopped or turned two pair that boated. It's really unlikely you have just an 8 here given the action.

All-in all I think you are going to have to rely on Kane not already having a hand he can insta call here (any flush any boat any eight) and you are praying he will lay down any decent 2pair. I think if he calls here with JT its probably the same as calling with AK given your likely range.

I'm still on the fence as to whether I like it or not, but I think selling a very strong here is not so believable given your turn play. If I'm Kane I'm thinking you show me eights full or air way more than you show me a flush even, so that call with JT/AK looks all the more tempting.

-Jason

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to guess you aren't representing a set because I feel like most of the time you are going to be jamming it on the turn.... Using the logic that led you to conclude that a reraise AI on the turn wont work often enough (ie, you expect a call so you push a big hand and your opponent may be drawing and has either high card queen or a insta call hand on the river which is not a good spot for you out of position)...

So, I'm going to guess you are representing a flush here or 89 or some other flopped or turned two pair that boated. It's really unlikely you have just an 8 here given the action.

All-in all I think you are going to have to rely on Kane not already having a hand he can insta call here (any flush any boat any eight) and you are praying he will lay down any decent 2pair. I think if he calls here with JT its probably the same as calling with AK given your likely range.

I'm still on the fence as to whether I like it or not, but I think selling a very strong here is not so believable given your turn play. If I'm Kane I'm thinking you show me eights full or air way more than you show me a flush even, so that call with JT/AK looks all the more tempting.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think GoG pushes the river w? Imo its a bluff, or:
89/t8/a8, (KQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, KJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, KT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, QT /images/graemlins/heart.gif, T7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 75 /images/graemlins/heart.gif)

[Lawrence Ng]

I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[KaneKungFu123]

if i had an Ace or Straight I'd have instacalled.

edit: i like your play in this hand. (because my hand range on the turn is alot wider here then other people are assuming).

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]thats what im thinking.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a man running very good against idiots.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think GoG pushs a set on the turn. Him having an 8 seems pretty strange to me. So that means he is representing /images/graemlins/heart.gif's? 2:1 seems like a pretty good price.

[KaneKungFu123]

did you guys forget that thread with GoG making this same bluff?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen you bluff enough on the river that this makes it an easy call Gab.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

With what hands? With this texture, I don't think 2:1 is a great price for AK type hands. Your response is exactly why good players like Gab get paid off way more than they should.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really easy call with AK imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the words of a man running very good against idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im interested to here your evaluation on this hand. I thought 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif would have been a much scarier card.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace ... I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imo JT is almost the same as AQ as far as calling the river.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
if i had an Ace or Straight I'd have instacalled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its fascinating how this game differs from my regular 5/10 (or 3/6). If I had anybody at the table who would even think about calling this with A I would be wetting my lips cause he would lose every single big pot against me. I wonder how effective changing gears from LAG (like GoG here) to nutpeddling mode must be in the right moment (and how long it takes to ppl to notice).
To the hand. I like pushing the turn cause its looks very much like a set but I hate river bluff cause I think (or at least thought) that KKF have goods (flopped goods, filled heart flush or case 8) here quite often. It seems I underestimated KKF's lagishness.

[lapoker17]

I don't think this is that hard to fathom. The river push after that action seemed desperate to me at first glance - and yes I realize there is history etc of which I am unaware.

[mikech]

i wouldn't say that AK is a "really easy call" but, 3 or 4 handed game, against a tough aggressive player willing to make big moves like GoG, i agree with kane insofar as i'd think AK is good here >30% of the time.

[Ulysses]

Would have been interesting to see reactions if KKF had posted this hand w/ him having AJ.

[Sponger15SB]

I think this post is just setting up KKF to get totally owned in the future. This post seems to totally conflict what he wrote in another thread...

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I don't post my hands here is that I don't want to expose my play or what I think of others' play when I know some of my opponents will read what I write.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this post and think there are some meta game considerations going on here. Yup. Totally.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Would have been interesting to see reactions if KKF had posted this hand w/ him having AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. All this "I'd have insta-called with an ace" is intriguing to me. I think GoG's range destroys an ace here, but hands like this make me realize I need to be all-in bluffing the river more.
-James

[Ulysses]

I can't believe you just quit GoG like that. I thought you were the new king, KKF!!!!!

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you just quit GoG like that. I thought you were the new king, KKF!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this post is just setting up KKF to get totally owned in the future. This post seems to totally conflict what he wrote in another thread...

[ QUOTE ]
The main reason I don't post my hands here is that I don't want to expose my play or what I think of others' play when I know some of my opponents will read what I write.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not buying this post and think there are some meta game considerations going on here. Yup. Totally.

[/ QUOTE ]

did anyone here read strassa's post?

[Jason Strasser]

was I close?

-Jason

[etizzle]

looks like play will go on.

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
was I close?

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is Diablos boy, so he probably plays this game for reasons Diablo plays.

My reasons are a combo of everything you listed.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
looks like play will go on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question that I hope one of you can answer.
GOG plays KKF HU right now (ok, not anymore, arb just joined). I don’t understand why they play.

They are both known as good players. But one of them must be better than the other (maybe just a small edge). I don’t know who is the best and I don’t care.

The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is Diablos boy, so he probably plays this game for reasons Diablo plays.

My reasons are a combo of everything you listed.

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is a punk little kid who happens to be a buddy of mine and plays poker for completely different reasons than me.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The player who doesn’t have the edge, should know that he is not the best player. He is good enough to play 50/100 and he should know when he is outclassed. Why does this player stay in the game? To learn? Ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

This may or may not be the case here, but generally in the very high-limit games, everyone who plays thinks they have an edge. Obviously, most are wrong, but very few really understand the impact of short-term variance, especially in big, aggressive SH games.

The same guys often play each other HU and 3-handed in big games all the time (not just these, but LHE/Omaha/whatever). I think very few are doing it thinking they are a big sucker in the game. Sometimes that's true and it's three pretty evenly matched guys sparring a lot. But often that's not the case.

[jkinetic]

From my experiences in high limit games, the edges you are looking for are different than in middle limit or lower limit games, where you are looking for some live one that has no clue.

In the higher limits, most of the players can play, but can they play when they are stuck, can they adjust from a full ring game to being shorthanded or vice versa, or how tilt prone are they, etc.

Because most higher limit players tend to have a lot of self confidence/ego they truly can't be objective and that is where they get in trouble.

You will be surprised if you comprised a list of X amount of pros and had each of those pros comment and rate the other pros on that list, you would get completely different opinions on various players by various players.

Case in point, Ted Forrest is known for staking a lot of players, well I know a player that is on the conservative side but with great discipline, he couldn't get the time of day from Ted because he would rather stake a more flamboyant player that is LAG that could win more money but probably lose a lot more money most times.

I have played in 50/100 NL games with a murderer's row of players, I mean world class players, in which I have made some of my biggest scores ever in. Not because I held the deck or outplayed them, but because these world class players couldn't hold it together that session. It was flat out appalling at first but I have grown used to it the more I played in these higher limit games.

I have seen some funny things where there will be 2 players following each other to tables because one thinks the other is live and vice versa, when I think both are anything but live or both are live, it is hilarious and I have seen this many times.

The higher limits are a totally different culture.

In HU and short handed games I think some people have a significant edge but the variance is so big that its impossible to tell. I also believe some players will dominate some players but get dominated by others. I think its kind of A>B>C>A. Some styles work better vs some people. It takes a truly remarkable player imo to be able to beat everybody. I am almost positive such a player doesnt exist.

[Hattifnatt]

I think a check/call "must" be better here on the river.

If he you bet and he has nothing and folds.

If you check and call he might bluff with air.

The price for you is the same.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i missing something here? strassa said that if you call with AK you should call with JT. now you say you would call instantly with AK but you (i assume) folded T9? how is his analysis not far off from yours?

[Mikey]

:-) i seen you on Full Tilt with 10K waiting for a game last night.

I think this hand is pretty good considering what you did, I mean hopefully you know enough about your opponnent that....

1. if he's trying to stop a bluff by raising on the turn and then you go all in on the river when the flush gets there and the board pairs, its pretty difficult for him to call you there. He must think that you can't possibly be bluffing in this spot and that you must have such a strong hand that he can't possibly call unless he has close to a nut boat.

You put him in a tough spot here.

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i missing something here? strassa said that if you call with AK you should call with JT. now you say you would call instantly with AK but you (i assume) folded T9? how is his analysis not far off from yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that strassa wasn't buying the river bet given turn action. i felt that JJ and Ax were strong possibiliites. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

100% agree. Much of the money in these games comes from guys who are solid when winning but just go off after hitting a bad run.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a check/call "must" be better here on the river.

If he you bet and he has nothing and folds.

If you check and call he might bluff with air.

The price for you is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a check/call "must" be better here on the river.

If he you bet and he has nothing and folds.

If you check and call he might bluff with air.

The price for you is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is a two-fisted head grabber. If GoG checks, do you think that KKF might check behind with a sh-t hand like a pair of tens and GoG loses?

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a check/call "must" be better here on the river.

If he you bet and he has nothing and folds.

If you check and call he might bluff with air.

The price for you is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is a two-fisted head grabber. If GoG checks, do you think that KKF might check behind with a sh-t hand like a pair of tens and GoG loses?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't reply to this. It dragged down an otherwise good thread.

[Hattifnatt]

Your point is noted. El Diablos as well. I was wrong - you where right, push is the right way to go on the river...

[Hattifnatt]

lol, sorry about that.

[Yeti]

np.

kane, are we to assume you'd call a turn push, yes?

gog, how would you play the turn if you held ak?

thank you.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, sorry about that.

[/ QUOTE ]yeti was a bit of a dick, but of course you now realize ppl are not just calling this allin w/ BS that doesnt beat a flush that often...
KKF clearly plays well, but he is full of it sometimes... "idve instacalled w/ an A"... PLZ.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
KKF clearly plays well, but he is full of it sometimes... "idve instacalled w/ an A"... PLZ.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, i thought maybe he said this as some sort of reverse psychology.

GoG's range is way to wide here, insta calll seems to be a stretch here?

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Diablo thinks Im full of [censored] that I would call here with an Ace, I'm just pointing out that your analysis wasnt far off from my analysis. I had t9.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see what the difference is between an Ace and a Ten in this spot.

[J.A.Sucker]

Hey Gab,

I wouldn't want to play a big pot here, frankly, especially with somebody who's been on a heater (which I assume is the case here with KKF). They just get the money in too easily. Wait for a better spot. Checking the turn is a good play and evaluate it from there. With somebody who's squeezing a bit, I love your play. Then again, I don't know how KKF plays, so I may be wrong, but I just have a feeling. I hope it worked out for you so you can buy me a drink next time we get together.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want to play a big pot here, frankly, especially with somebody who's been on a heater

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this concept is an important one and is never really talked about on this board...

[J.A.Sucker]

If GoG's range of hands is so wide, with the pot as big as it's gotten (for lots of reasons), isn't an instacall the only way to play it? I'm not saying you'd like calling, but I think that's all you can do. This is the problem with playing shorthanded against a top player in a big NL game.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want to play a big pot here, frankly, especially with somebody who's been on a heater

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this concept is an important one and is never really talked about on this board...

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding me? Just like esp and card rushes exist?

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
are you kidding me? Just like esp and card rushes exist?




[/ QUOTE ]

actually its nothing like that...and if you aren't familiar with how winning/losing affects the play of your opponents then you're missing an important aspect of big bet poker.

[AZK]

It's more applicable live than online and at higher limits than lower ones, but no I'm not kidding.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you kidding me? Just like esp and card rushes exist?




[/ QUOTE ]

actually its nothing like that...and if you aren't familiar with how winning/losing affects the play of your opponents then you're missing an important aspect of big bet poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, true, true, dealing more with the tilt factor and everying. makes sense.

more confidence = better decisions = play tougher.

i back down here.

[fsuplayer]

right, but more important is that JA is saying Kane will call with a lot more hands since he has been a on tear lately.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
right, but more important is that JA is saying Kane will call with a lot more hands since he has been a on tear lately.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, makes sense, the fact he is tearing it up does impact the hand alot.

sorry bros.

=)

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
3- or 4-handed. Folded to me in the SB and I make it 300 with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. KKF calls in the BB. I have about 17000 and he covers.

Flop A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet 600 and he calls.

Turn T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet 1800 and he makes it 5600. I call 3800.

River 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Pot is 13000. I have about 10500 left and go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand, if you indeed had 79ss, scares the hell out of me and also shows the reason why I wont step foot in those games.

[tdarko]

then he should call with 9/10 too right?

[ QUOTE ]
This is the problem with playing shorthanded against a top player in a big NL game.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe i wasn't clear, "insta" was a stretch to me. i honestly don't know what i would do but it probably wouldn't be instant.

[Jason Strasser]

I don't think kane calls a turn push. Gog is either getting funky with a draw that is probably not a huge dog even with one card to come, or he is totally fcked. I guess if the two had been sparring enough there's nothing wrong with making a stand, but I feel like if Gog pushes the turn Kane will fold.

[kagame]

i also dont understand why a turn push wont "work often enough"

the river is scary, yes, but why would you push with a flush?

youre representing a full house, and not a flush

now, this means you have everything or nothing and CAN be picked off as a bluff, whereas you might be pushing the turn with various hands that are not EVERYTHING but still ahead of your opponents hand range

also, if you really do nearly always play sets hard on the turn then this makes the play even worse

thoughts on how you would have interpreted a turn push, Kane?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want to play a big pot here, frankly, especially with somebody who's been on a heater

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this concept is an important one and is never really talked about on this board...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... I feel like just about every decent 25/50 or 50/100 post talks about this. Every single decent post discusses what gear opponents are in and what has been happening lately, whether they've taken a beat lately or note, been shown a bluff, etc. I feel like this is the most basic of concepts.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If GoG's range of hands is so wide, with the pot as big as it's gotten (for lots of reasons), isn't an instacall the only way to play it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You and other who think a top player's hand range is "so wide" in this spot given the action are quite wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying you'd like calling, but I think that's all you can do. This is the problem with playing shorthanded against a top player in a big NL game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Top players make their money in this game by getting players to call w/ any Ace here, not by running huge bluffs. Sometimes, of course, things line up rightly for big bluffs and good players take advantage of those spots.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want to play a big pot here, frankly, especially with somebody who's been on a heater

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this concept is an important one and is never really talked about on this board...

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, AZK, if you were paying attention, I made this point right at the beginning of this thread.

KKF: This is a really easy call with AK imho.

Diablo: These are the words of a man running very good against idiots.

[J.A.Sucker]

I know it sounds contrary to what I wrote before, but I would tend to agree with you completely. Things seem out of whack on this hand, but all the more reason that I figure that the best thing to do for GoG is to wait. Part of the reason that top players get paid, is that there is always doubt, deserved or otherwise. This is a sketchy board and gets into many levels of thinking, if they are availible. Since the pot is so large at this point, I think you have to call it at times. Of course, I don't think the pot should have ever gotten that big if an A is the hand. This is one of those things that I can't really communicate well, but you would get it (and agree, I'm sure) if we were talking about it in person.

[AZK]

I remember but it didn't click at that time...I meant this is never brought up in a 5/10, 10/20 hand...carry on....

[J.A.Sucker]

If I had T9, I would never have to worry about it. The money would have already been in on the turn. I'm not exactly thrilled with seeing those rivers and having a pot sized bet left.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had T9, I would never have to worry about it. The money would have already been in on the turn. I'm not exactly thrilled with seeing those rivers and having a pot sized bet left.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's $15,000 into a $3600 pot. Gotta be willing to play more poker than that if you're ever gonna figure out NL. Stick to limit, Sucker.

[J.A.Sucker]

That's why I don't, and if I do, it ain't shorthanded. I don't want to make these decisions. Of course, I'm not gonna just push in with made hands there, so it's can't be that bad.

[The Gift Of Gab]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think kane calls a turn push.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would make sense to think this, but on the turn I thought he would call a push with about AJ+, for reasons others have already pointed out.

[Boris]

Not that you will, but can you tell me why the river heart is such a great card to bluff on? It seems from reading some posts in this thread that KKF had Ks-Js. Why wouldn't he make a similiar play with a heart draw?

[etizzle]

he had T9.

[durrrr]

I think that calling the turn and pushing the river gains you outs vs. t9 or Ax or w/e (if KKF is calling the riv. push w/ A2 imo he should be calling it w/ T9 also). You have ~8 extra flush outs you can bluff, however you may not get paid if you hit a Jack or 6 vs AT for example. Also you let hands like KQ,KJ see the river, and most importantly you let spades see the river (probably only KQ/KJ/75 spds). Your line is very interesting GoG, but i still think 3beting the turn allin might be more profitable.

anybody here not like KKF turn raise? KKF planning on calling a turn push I guess

[theBruiser500]

GoG are you going to respond?

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think kane calls a turn push.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would make sense to think this, but on the turn I thought he would call a push with about AJ+, for reasons others have already pointed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I wish I was in that game. Would have waited for my aces, hit top set and then stacked you guys.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to make these decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not forget that the reason we play poker (or any game) is to make tough decisions.

I think we let the allure of money and ease cloud the the essence of fun poker. When you started playing five card draw, you dreamed of making that thin call with Ace high against a busted flush draw.

I think if we all lived to make the tough decisions correctly and revelled in those spots instead of trembled in them, we'd all have entourages like Michael Gracz.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think it's a little different than that. In this hand, what rivers do I really want to see with my hand? The money behind is less than a pot sized bet with the raise that went in. There's about 3600 already in the center, and I'm more than happy to win that there. Also keep in mind that I'm pushing other hands as well. Frankly, I think the raise that KKF made commits his money in the pot on the river, barring the exact card that came down (and probably an A). If I get called, then I'm gonna get busted, but at least I don't set myself up to get bluffed on the end. With the money a little shallower, this is the clear play. With the money deeper, it's not. If my choice is wrong, it can't be wrong by much.

[durrrr]

calling/folding/pushing shouldnt be your only turn options with these stacks.

[J.A.Sucker]

On that board, with a player as tough as GoG, why not? If the judgement is so tough on this hand from afar, how are you intending to make a good decision at the table?

[Ulysses]

I think you give up significant EV by pushing with that kind of overbet. Sure, it saves you a potential tough decision, but if you're giving up that kind of EV to make your decisions easier, time to pick a different game. Which, you (and I - this is precisely why I rarely play SH big-big games) have, so I think we agree.

[paco]

CAn someone tell me why a turn c/r AI is not being seriously considered here? I mean, he should bet after calling a pot sized flop bet and we can rep the made straight by pushing? Wouldn't the fold equity plus odds to made hand be +EV?
Maybe there is some reason this is obviously wrong--if so somebody please explain...
Thanks

[Big_Jim]

From the first and second replies to this thread:

Yeti: Did you consider shoving the turn?

GoG: Yes, but I don't think it would have worked often enough.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
From the first and second replies to this thread:

Yeti: Did you consider shoving the turn?

GoG: Yes, but I don't think it would have worked often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what paco is saying.

bet-3bet != check-raise.

[Big_Jim]

You're right. My bad.

[paco]

You're saying that in most cases bet-3-bet is equivalent to a turn c/r? Don't you think your fold equity would go down with a bet-3-bet (fattening up the pot more)?

Although I think KKF would have to give more credit to a b3b, and guess there's still plenty of chips left to make the 3b multiples of the pot. Would a c/r be superior when money is not as deep?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
You're saying that in most cases bet-3-bet is equivalent to a turn c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's saying that a bet/3-bet is NOT equivalent to a turn c/r.

Personally, I think that a c/r all in would have been a strong option, but I don't know why nobody has considered it yet.

[The Gift Of Gab]

[ QUOTE ]
CAn someone tell me why a turn c/r AI is not being seriously considered here?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a perfectly fine line, especially against a very aggressive player, but I chose not to take it this time.

[The Gift Of Gab]

[ QUOTE ]
can you tell me why the river heart is such a great card to bluff on?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of flush draws with a pair or straight draw I could have, and the board pairing makes it harder for him to call with two pair if he's not full. I would have been screwed if KKF had been semibluffing with a heart draw, but at the time I didn't think he was.

[kagame]

i used the term "3 bet" in an email to ciaffonne and he told me it was a limit term and that he didnt know what i meant, asked if i meant reraise lmao

Please forgive my intrusion into the smart zone. For those who know me I am a lowly tournament player who doesnt play too much cash, and I just got lost in the forest and wound up in this thread.

Now, knowing in advance that the opinion of a tournament player aint worth a hill of beans, I want to share my thoughts on this hand, as I did discuss it with someone for quite some time.

The problem with the check raise allin is pretty much the same, but to a lesser degree, as the problem with an open push on the turn...just way too much risk for the pot. Also, with all those draws out there, i am not so sure you want to be giving HIM the opportunity to draw out as well.
Let's also not forget that betting out very well may take the pot down instantly, which is always good when u dont have too much (yet).

So I like the lead out, and the issue becomes what to do with the reraise. Its clear that if you DO flat call you are gonna be either betting a lot or pushing on the river anyway. So what if you reraiase allin on the turn?...Forget what uve represented for now (probably an ace), but ..what can he call with on the turn, given the action so far. Now when we went over this my frined and I thought there were really only 2 hands he could call with that were also represented by his earlier actions, T9 AND t8. I am sorry but all this talk about whther he can call with AK and all these aces seems a bit superfluous, as I really think its unlikely that he could have one without either rerraising preflop or at least raising the flop. I really think an ace is extremely unlikely here. (but again, not a cash game player so be eay on me when wondering how i can be so dumb).

So the funny thing here is that he chose option 2 which was flat calling and then pushing the river, which is also ok, because now he cant even call with the t9 anymmore, although now he can call with all those made flushes and possibly with some made straights and 8s...
I think this is incredibly close between the way he actually played it and going allin on the turn after the reraise. I wonder what GAG would do if his turn bet was smooth called?

Anyway, glad to be on the board finally after too long away...GREAT HAND GUYS.



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