Laydown Question

Hey everybody,

Anyone have thoughts here on size of this flop bet and the lay-down on the turn? There was a lot out there, but I'm still not sure.

Thanks again,
Anthony


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1380)
MP3 (t1280)
CO (t2075)
Button (t1385)
SB (t600)
Hero (t2685)
UTG (t610)
UTG+1 (t2515)
MP1 (t970)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t180) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, UTG calls t180, UTG+1 calls t180, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (t720) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t120</font>, UTG+1 calls t120, Hero folds.

[bigt439]

You know you have a flush draw right?

[rbear]

Drawing to 3rd nut flush as a reason to stay in?? I see an 8 as my only out... good fold, imo

[DDH]

[ QUOTE ]
You know you have a flush draw right?

[/ QUOTE ]

A flush draw that is probably screwed at this point.

I fold, especially with UTG's bet being so small, that's just begging for a call.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
You know you have a flush draw right?

[/ QUOTE ]
You know he has the one card third nut flush draw on a paired board, right?

[Nick M]

I love this fold. As far as the bet on the flop goes I wouldn't bet that much...maybe 100. I don't like playing bad hands, OOP, for a lot of money, on a flop where there are a lot of draws and I could be easily beat before the turn. Thats a lot of reasons

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know you have a flush draw right?

[/ QUOTE ]
You know he has the one card third nut flush draw on a paired board, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's getting 8:1 on his money with tp and the third nut draw. Who's boated up here? No one. 5 is very rare. Sometimes you have the second flush draw, but sometimes you're winning anyways. You have 8's and maybe Q's as outs, with these odds, and closing the action, how can you fold this?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]

He's getting 8:1 on his money with tp and the third nut draw. Who's boated up here? No one. 5 is very rare. Sometimes you have the second flush draw, but sometimes you're winning anyways. You have 8's and maybe Q's as outs, with these odds, and closing the action, how can you fold this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the size of your stack, I would likely call too. The pot odds more than make up for your marginal holding. And assuming a fullboat is the winning hand, you have 5 outs to improve a winner. Your outs are about 8:1 to improve to the likely best hand.

Furthermore, the slow action may mean your third nut flush may be worth a marginal call on the river (especially if the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls).

If your stack was less than 12 times the turn bet, I might fold here. Anyway, this is a great spot to potentially stack off two other guys on the cheap.

Edit: Just noticed, not that this matters much. But a full boat will not be the nuts (and nor will 4 of a kind).

your post flop bet was the problem...

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
your post flop bet was the problem...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true. Your hand has huge reverse implied odds, and your opponents have redraws that make this a troublesome spot. I think I'd prefer to check, and see what the action brings, and make a decision then. You have a very beautiful stack at this stage of the game, no reason to risk stacking off with this marginal hand on the flop.

[tigerite]

Don't bet this flop OOP, there's no need.

[bawcerelli]

i always check fold a flop like this. for all you know someone already has trips.

[tigerite]

Well check-fold is a little weak-tight, it would depend on who bet. The later the position of the bettor, the more inclined I would be to call and see a turn.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Well check-fold is a little weak-tight, it would depend on who bet. The later the position of the bettor, the more inclined I would be to call and see a turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also evaluate a flop call based on the size of the bet as well.

[tigerite]

Naturally, but that's not position dependent so much.. I guess I should've mentioned it though.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't bet this flop OOP, there's no need.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree (just so people don't think I'm your lacky), but seriously I bet here, but it's about half pot. No one's getting crazy with you here, so if someone limped 99 or TT, I want to know. I check the turn if called, and fold to much resistance, but like I said I don't see too many inferior hands trying to take you off yours (because a half pot on the flop could easily be a 5 from the blind). Draws and overs get a free draw at my hand, but that's just the way it is IMO.

[tigerite]

Thing is, this is the kind of hand you want to snap off a bluff, but not the kind you want to be betting for value.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, this is the kind of hand you want to snap off a bluff, but not the kind you want to be betting for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree again. This is the kind of hand you want to be over now because of how vulnerable and OOP you are, but it's not a bluff because you still have showdown value if called. Snapping off a bluff with three streets to go, three opponents and the second worst position with a marginal holding does not sound like a good gameplan to me. I actually think this is a terrible place to snap off a bluff, because with action you have no idea if you're ahead. Bet the flop, try and take it down, fold knowing you're beat to resistance, and try and get a cheap showdown against a caller (which shouldn't be too hard).

[tigerite]

Yeah, maybe you are right. However I might go for a check-raise on this flop because any kind of bet won't get much to fold that you want to, and will only make stuff you don't mind hanging around let go. I mean, when called on the bet, you don't really get any idea of where you are in the hand. Betting isn't bad, but just wouldn't be how I'd play the hand.

[Nick M]

if you bet here, it's not for value, it's to pick it up. If you get called, it doesn't matter what they could have, you check fold and move on to the next hand.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
if you bet here, it's not for value, it's to pick it up. If you get called, it doesn't matter what they could have, you check fold and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. And that's why I would choose to check first.