AQ - Flops top pair

[hemstock]

Button is ~ 60/15/1/40

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Isnt this the perfect time for a check-raise on the flop?
Should I play any differently?
Is folding the river a big mistake?

[AlmightyJay]

I'm folding this preflop.

Barring that, I'm definitely check/raising the flop. Betting out traps the field for two bets, while check/raising forces them to call two cold. You get much more protection that way.

[tyler_cracker]

I 3-bet preflop all day long.

Since you didn't, you've got to check-raise this flop, unless Button is so LAGgy that you're going to bet/3-bet.

Obviously, things play very different after those raises. With your line, i'm completely lost by the time we get to the river. I can't fold getting 15:1 in this spot, though i think you're losing to AA/KK a majority of the time.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck. Why?

[DownUnder]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right?

DU

[hemstock]

If I wasn't first to act after the flop, I would propably raise. But being out of position I was affraid to.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
If I wasn't first to act after the flop, I would propably raise. But being out of position I was affraid to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, being OOP sucks. But would you rather be OOP against 1 opponent (who gets absolute position in this hand no matter what)? or against 4 opponents?

[Yerma]

I think you can afford to be more assertive preflop. If you think the button raises light, 3-bet. Otherwise your hand is speculative, offsuit, and played in a large field out of position--fold. Just calling is very confused strategy. You might say that it's ok to act confused since you don't know if you are ahead or behind. That must be wrong. 3-betting will probably fold the big blind at least, and sometimes another limper or two as well. That's good enough reason if you think there is a good chance you are ahead.

Having played as you did, I think check-raising the flop is normal. When you do, you are giving anyone else with a Queen a tough decision. If they call cold, as often happens, well that is a bad mistake. Let them make the big mistake. Betting and letting a weaker Queen just call is no good. Also, if you bet, a pocket pair is getting nearly the implied odds it needs to call. If it's even close, I vote for knocking that stuff out with a check-raise.

[Augster]

Yikes.

Preflop, I was going to agree with just calling from the SB with AQos, and it's 1/2, but then I re-looked at the guy's statline. I'm 3-betting a 60/15 doing a button raise. This may get it head's up. If not, AQ is still a decent hand to fall back on.

Flop, check-raise. Everyone will most likely check to the button, who will auto-bet, and you raise and then it's just you against him. Not bad with TPTK with no draws out.

The way you played it, I'd just bet out on the turn. I'd be a bit afraid of it getting checked through now with actual draws on the board.

River, one of the worst cards ever. JT now has you beat. A backdoor flush does also. Hell, he could have Q8os if he's raising on the button as a 60/15. /images/graemlins/mad.gif Sadly, I'm check/crying-calling the river because I just can't value-bet/fold to a raise in that situation. If it gets checked through and win, I get to see what he was playing anyway.

I'm terrible though.

*grunch*
I check\call the diamond river.
The rest is good.

WT..?

What is everyone trying to fold by check\raising this flop?

[AlmightyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right?

DU

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the 15% preflop raise. So I'm changing that fold to a 3-bet. I think calling is by far the worst option here, though, because AQo OOP against a big field and a raiser is not a very good spot.

I would c/r this flop, try to get it HU and see what he does. I check/call the river here.

3 bet preflop for information as much as anything else. you cant call or you get in to situations like that.

after that the hand plays too differently....

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop for information

[/ QUOTE ] LAG spewing and not good reasoning at all.

Pflop..I'm calling and I'll be quick to lay it down if the flop goes bad.

Flop: I think I would check raise and the hand would play differently. Aggressive AK would probably call due to the overcard and I would like to see some people fold.
**** After responding to other questions I don't think I'm check raising to fold I think its more in an effort to trap the callers after the villian bet for one more...especially before they realize they are in trouble

Turn: Based on the play so far I think the Button Sees the Q on the board and basically doesn't care that you are betting. To me that means "I've got a strong hand I don't care what you are betting with". Maybe KK/AA
I would just call. I think you may be in trouble here.

River: In the face of that much aggressiveness I don't think Q is good. If you were a little more passive in this situation you may get to see the river cheaper.

If the turn wasn't raised I would check/call river. But I think I'm behind or splitting.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop for information

[/ QUOTE ] LAG spewing and not good reasoning at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? are you saying you call/fold this preflop?

or that 3betting is correct but for value to a much greater extent than for information.

i 3bet for value against a player with these stats for sure, but even donks get hands and i like to see if he caps it preflop so i can narrow his hand range and play accordingly post flop.

would like to hear more reasoning behind this cause if its spewing... then i spew a lot =/

[@bsolute_luck]

too many people in the hand. a LAG will cap with TONS of junk so the "information" theory is bad and you're OOP for the hand. say though that you are MP and the LAG raises in EP and there is only 1 UTG weak limper before him NOW you would 3-bet to isolate the LAG and weak limper, but not here.

I think I'm check raising to put pressure on the PF raiser and trap me some late callers that call his original bet. I really think it more for value than anything.


reasonable drawing hands don't likely except A2. So I'm not really trying to protect agains the draw

Edit: Original response was more geared to Flop vs the 3bet PreFlop

What about 3betting for value.

The other callers behind the raiser may not call the villian raise created by your original bet. But if you C/R you may trap them for 1 more.

Solid drawing hands seem unlikely in this hand and the callers may be calling purely for the luck factor against a 60%er....

[ QUOTE ]
too many people in the hand. a LAG will cap with TONS of junk so the "information" theory is bad and you're OOP for the hand. say though that you are MP and the LAG raises in EP and there is only 1 UTG weak limper before him NOW you would 3-bet to isolate the LAG and weak limper, but not here.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm... interesting.

i would say there are 3 reasons for the preflop 3bet:
1. value, obviously, your hands ahead, equity edge.
2. isolation, limit players in the hand to increase your chances of winning the pot.
3. information, give other players another chance to speak at a max cost of 1BB in order to narrow their hand ranges.

i get what your saying regarding isolation being not as effective with more people sitting in behind you... but still, a call here will most likely result in a 6 player pot(BB will call 50%+ on an average 1/2 table)

meanwhile a 3bet will result in BB mostly folding, and chances are only ~1.5 of the original limpers playing on, giving you 3.5 players, and knocking out 2.5. isnt this still a case for isolation (note: i agree that isolation here isnt nearly as big a factor as value or information)?

Button is ~ 60/15/1/40

after 40 hands, i think we can identify vil as lag, sure... but not maniac. i think the fact he his pfr with such a wide range will make him more likely to slow down when he is being played back at.

i take it your advocating 3betting is only good for value? or your suggesting just calling? if just calling....

whats your play if vil is CO and hero is button, with all others playing in the same way?

[@bsolute_luck]

are you asking the flop or preflop? i was simply talking preflop that 3-betting is NOT a good idea.

i think preflop/flop/turn are played well.

[Aaron W.]

Wow... I dislike a lot of the preflop advice. Just don't fold. 3-betting is okay if you know why you're doing it (not for information, not to be assertive -- it's for value) and calling is fine.

Folding is the worst option by far. Calling and 3-betting are both good and run close in value here. I personally would 3-bet this somewhat often. The 3-bet preflop makes postflop a little awkward (more difficult) because of your relative position to the other aggressor, so the postflop tendencies of all the players requires some extra attention if you take this route. The hand is much easier to play if you just call and plan to check-raise a lot of good flops as long as the action is okay (good flops includes flopping overcards).

Edited the first response. After I saw Eskimo's response I realized you were discussion Preflop.

[Shillx]

Your flop/turn play doesn't make any sense. Bet-calling the flop is interesting, but it should be done with the intention of betting the turn. Your line just doesn't fit here at all...

Brad

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]

Isnt this the perfect time for a check-raise on the flop?
Should I play any differently?
Is folding the river a big mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going with yes, yes, and no. You're never good on the river. PF is fine.

[hemstock]

Button had A6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the rivered flush

[lautzutao]

I don't think a checkraise is good here. You want to trap everyone in between you and villian for more bets, not drive them out. So lead the flop.

For the same reason, I donk this turn and 3-bet it if it's raised.

Without a read I call. Button seems pretty raise happy. I think he could be bluffing with the flush card hitting.

[lautzutao]

Buddy listed/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Preflop: I am not folding here...I would call this
FLOP: I would go for the check raise
TURN: The way you played the flop a c/r is ok, but if you already c/r the flop than you bet out on the turn...
RIVER: I would say folding is a big mistake, the pot is large and the button has show aggression on the flop, and I doubt he has the flush. Folding this river would be weak, so I call it...

Hades18

[TomBrooks]

&gt; Is'nt this the perfect time for a check-raise on the flop?

If button always bets after he raises preflop.

&gt; Should I play any differently?

Three betting the flop looks viable also. Especially if UTG is loose and limps hands like A3, A5, or 56s.

&gt; Is folding the river a big mistake?

If button is straightforward, no. If he is prone to bluffing, yes.