Speaking of defending your BB 3 handed with suited trash.

[Borodog]

Given the earlier threads on this topic, this hand came up.

UTG seems weak-tight, but may just be missing flops. He's raised a couple of times and released on the turn or river for a single bet. MP3 is a 53-5.5-2.6 who has been very aggro with any part of the board.

Good spot to defend with suited junk, or -EV?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks.

River: (4.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

[crazygoose]

I think you have ot ask yourself what the hell anyone is going ot call you with that you beat. OK maybe UTG's AK. This is a retarded value bet IMO. MP3 or UTG could have mid or small PPs as well.

[toss]

PF is -EV at least for me.

Flop call is fine.

I think river is good too. MP3 would have probably made more noise if he had a pair.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have ot ask yourself what the hell anyone is going ot call you with that you beat. OK maybe UTG's AK. This is a retarded value bet IMO. MP3 or UTG could have mid or small PPs as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I wanted to check/call as soon as I clicked bet. Sigh.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
PF is -EV at least for me.

Flop call is fine.

I think river is good too. MP3 would have probably made more noise if he had a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but the point is will he call if I'm not beat? I think I should have checked to induce a bluff from him.

[toss]

It less likely that Preflop raiser will call with Ace high since you're betting into two people at the end. The loose aggro on the other will probably call with A or K high a good amount. Well I guess that actually depends on his WTSD rate. The other options are check calling or check folding. I think betting is the best as the Preflop raiser probably won't bet A hi 3 way.

[toss]

It less likely that Preflop raiser will call with Ace high since you're betting into two people at the end. The loose aggro on the other will probably call with A or K high a good amount. Well I guess that actually depends on his WTSD rate. The other options are check calling or check folding. I think the reason I like betting is because I can't see myself calling if the Prelop raiser bets and the other villain calls.

[Piiop]

I'd fold preflop - 1/2 blinds, 4-high, UTG raise, not working for me.

I'd bet the flop and not the river.

[pokerjunky]

I don't see how the river isn't a check fold given the texture of the board and the fact that it's still 3-handed.

[Borodog]

In the other thread, I was a pretty vociferous advocate of folding suited junk in these spots. But since this is $2-$4 I'm experimenting. The problem as I see it is, individual hands in marginal situations like this don't really tell me much. Win the hand? Well, fish get lucky, don't they?

I'm not sure anything less than consistently playing these kind of hands for many, many thousands of hands is going to tell me anything.

More fun with suited trash:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

[crazygoose]

Buddy, you have to stop making these plays. You got lucky this time, but you need to stop. BTW, how many tables you play, whats your winrate, how many hands etc.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Buddy, you have to stop making these plays. You got lucky this time, but you need to stop. BTW, how many tables you play, whats your winrate, how many hands etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I know. I made it clear in the other thread that if these sorts of pre-flop calls are profitable at all, it is just barely, and that I don't think you lose much by folding them.

If anything, I don't defend my blinds enough by most people's standards.

But if you feel like experimenting, you have to admit, this is a pretty cheap situation to try it. You have to be either in your BB or a completed SB, with suited junk, and it's raised, and the pot is exactly 3 or 4 handed. It can't be the biggest leak in the world.

I 8 table $2-$4 these days. My bread and butter was 8-tabling $3-$6 before the advent of the 6-maxes killed those games on Party. My win rate fluctuates between 2 and 2.5BB/100. I have 60,000 hands in my current database (my original DB was lost). For most of my database I was pretty tight, 15-8. But I'm trying to target something more like (17-18)-(10-11) or thereabouts.

[Peter_rus]

Given your reads - your flop check-call isn't good. You should bet here majority of time to make troubles to your aggro opponent and get your value from UTG's probable high cards (or find out that he's on overpair as quick as possible to muck this hand on turn).

And attention: you should muck this hand preflop! (Even if you play postflop perfectly).

2 reasons for it:

1. Raiser has UTG position. Probability for him to have big pair is very high for your tiny flopped pairs. Increased implyed odds that gives you your aggro-guy not really compensate it too far.

2. It's 2/4 game. Rake is big. That forces you to complete in SB or call in BB somewhat lesser than in 15/30 or 30/60.
Of course people here play worse and you get more implyed value. But the other reason is also important - people also fold less here too. Assuming these 2 factors nearly compensate each other leading us to defend less because of rake.

I once posted my investigations in mid-high forum. This topic becomes quite popular around 2+2 limit forums and see many quotes and links every week. Please note in future that defending with weak suited hands 3-way is marginal and isn't well in my opinion for games below 10/20. First reason is rake, second reason - preflop raiser at these limits far more tighter than in higher games.

If i played 2/4 i would defend suited 1-gappers+, Jxs+. No more.

[Borodog]

Thank you very much Peter. I think this is all the experimenting in junk suited defense I'm going to try.