Very deep stacks, flopped nuts with redraw, think i fakked up

[Filip]

Ultimate Bet Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($97)
UTG ($305.40)
UTG+1 ($245)
MP1 ($194)
MP2 ($550.15)
CO ($141.35)
Hero ($629.15)
SB ($289)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $2, AK calls $2, BB checks.

Flop: ($9) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls $4.

Turn: ($17) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $21</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $40</font>, MP2 calls $19.

River: ($97) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>, MP2 calls $35.

Final Pot: $167

I think my min raise on the turn is horrible and that i probably could have stacked him off. Dreamscenario hits and i totaly junks it.....

Anyone think he will fold 2nd nuts here?

I am gonna blame it on the blood-sugar-crash i got some time before this pot and i shouldnt complain since i won a nice pot but it really feels like i missed collecting some $400 more.


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero: Js 6s As Ks Qs flush, ace high
MP2: 8c 5s 9s Ts

[DRKEVDC]

Based on the fact that he didn't reraise you on the turn he may have folded if you came out guns blazing. I would have bet a little more than $2, probably going 1/2 the pot.

NH, BTW

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on the fact that he didn't reraise you on the turn he may have folded if you came out guns blazing. I would have bet a little more than $2, probably going 1/2 the pot.

NH, BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah i cant understand why i bet 2...... like i wrote my system wasnt running at 100%. Betting like 1/2 pot would also make him more pot commited if he would have potted it back.


TY TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif

nh.. To me, it looks like you extracted a pretty nice value for the hand. I do like the suggestion of making the initial "blocking bet" on the turn a bit closer to 1/3 to half the pot rather than a min bet.

I think he was making a crying call on the river and could have folded to a large bet.

[Piiop]

Yeah, I would've bet more on the flop and turn also.

[HuggyBear]

Nice hand.

I might make the flop bet a little bigger. But what are you trying to represent there? Will Villian call with just a FD?

Like you said the turn bet is a little small, I agree that a half-pot bet is good here, but puts you in an awkward position. If he check-raises you, and you three-bet you have shown immense strength and might loose him.

What line would stack him? I think just increasing the bet sizes would be the best way to squeaze a little more value out of him.

[fuzzbox]

Pot the flop.
Pot the turn, if he raises, repot.
Pot the river.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand.

I might make the flop bet a little bigger. But what are you trying to represent there? Will Villian call with just a FD?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ive been using my position aggresivly and was hoping that someone was planning on checkraising me, i would then repot it. By betting 45% of the pot i still give the incorrect odds for a flush to draw but it is still "cheap". But if you consider implied odds i could safely pot it.


[ QUOTE ]
Like you said the turn bet is a little small, I agree that a half-pot bet is good here, but puts you in an awkward position. If he check-raises you, and you three-bet you have shown immense strength and might loose him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aye, good point. Cant think of the best way to play the hand if i bet 1/2 bot and he pots it. That would make the pot $76 (19+9.5 +9.5+38). Would he call a $114 reraise?


[ QUOTE ]
What line would stack him? I think just increasing the bet sizes would be the best way to squeaze a little more value out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, he probably wouldnt have gone broke with the 2nd nuts anyway so milking him some more would probably have been the best play.

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot the flop.
Pot the turn, if he raises, repot.
Pot the river.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that would have worked it would have been great but i think i would taken it down on the flop, winning a nice $9 pot.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot the flop.
Pot the turn, if he raises, repot.
Pot the river.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that would have worked it would have been great but i think i would taken it down on the flop, winning a nice $9 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ.
Villain here called your bet on the flop, drawing to a non nut flush on a str8 board. Not only was it a non-nut flush, but he was drawing to the 3rd nut flush, yet he still called you.

On the turn, you effectively turned your hand face up (What else bets 2, then minraises a check-raise?), yet villain still check-raised you, and still called your minraise. On the river, he can only beat a worse flush, and you have basically told him that you have the nuts, and he STILL calls a value bet.

Why do you assume that villain would not call pot on the flop, then check-raise pot you on the turn, and go to the felt with his 2nd nut hand here?

Even if he calls pot on all streets, you do better than you did.

If villain is as good as you believe, then he folds when you raise the turn.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot the flop.
Pot the turn, if he raises, repot.
Pot the river.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that would have worked it would have been great but i think i would taken it down on the flop, winning a nice $9 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way - you realise that your flush draw is non-nut on the flop. So YOU want to shut out better flush draws. If you hit a spade for $4, then what? What you *really* would like is for somebody to go to the felt with you with a broadway straight and no backup flush draw. If that is the case, pot the flop. Mr. Broadway will let you know by repotting, and now you can shovel your chips in as fast as possible. Half potting, might give him a chance to realise that he doesnt have that good a hand after all.

[scdavis0]

This isn't a dream scenario on the turn. It's no different than any other flush over flush situation. Sometimes the guy sucks and calls pot pot, and sometimes he folds.

[scdavis0]

Also I'm not sure how happy I'd be getting all in for 300BBs each on this flop. The nut straight is a QT so. He's 50/50 to have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

If he raises me on the flop, I'd hate to re-raise because if he gives me additional action, I'm guaranteed to be free rolled.

[HuggyBear]

I like your line much better the more I think about it. It allows more money to get in with less information given about your redraw. If he will pay off filip's line, you are very likely to get more money with his line (provided he calls the flop) and without doing a results based analysis, without question wins quite a bit more money against a naked QJxx.
scdavis0's point in the next post regarding a 4th bet on the flop is good to consider, but cross that bridge when you come to it.

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that villain would not call pot on the flop, then check-raise pot you on the turn, and go to the felt with his 2nd nut hand here?


[/ QUOTE ]

Self-denial? Dont wanna admit how bad i played it. I now think you are right.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[neuroman]

[ QUOTE ]
He's 50/50 to have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero has one queen, three others are out. If Villain also has the nut straight on the flop, he's 33/67 to have the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Plus, just having the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif does not mean he's suited in spades.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm not sure how happy I'd be getting all in for 300BBs each on this flop. The nut straight is a QT so. He's 50/50 to have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

If he raises me on the flop, I'd hate to re-raise because if he gives me additional action, I'm guaranteed to be free rolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be absolutely delighted to get it all-in on this flop with the current nuts, and the 2nd nut flush draw. Villain could easily have QJxx and no redraws, or QJxx and a smaller flush draw. And some very small % of the time, he will be freerolling us, but we are FAR more likely to be freerolling villain.

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also I'm not sure how happy I'd be getting all in for 300BBs each on this flop. The nut straight is a QT so. He's 50/50 to have the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

If he raises me on the flop, I'd hate to re-raise because if he gives me additional action, I'm guaranteed to be free rolled.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be absolutely delighted to get it all-in on this flop with the current nuts, and the 2nd nut flush draw. Villain could easily have QJxx and no redraws, or QJxx and a smaller flush draw. And some very small % of the time, he will be freerolling us, but we are FAR more likely to be freerolling villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, getting it all in on the flop would be great.

[scdavis0]

Against anyone remotely competent in Omaha if you get all in for deep money you will be getting freerolled.

At minimum be dodging a boat redraw.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Against anyone remotely competent in Omaha if you get all in for deep money you will be getting freerolled.

At minimum be dodging a boat redraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. I am remotely competent at omaha, and I would get my money in with QJ and a good flush draw here. I dont have to have the current nuts AND a NUT redraw. I would get old before I played a hand if that was my requirements.

The current nuts and the 2nd nut flush draw is a really really strong hand here.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against anyone remotely competent in Omaha if you get all in for deep money you will be getting freerolled.

At minimum be dodging a boat redraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. I am remotely competent at omaha, and I would get my money in with QJ and a good flush draw here. I dont have to have the current nuts AND a NUT redraw. I would get old before I played a hand if that was my requirements.

The current nuts and the 2nd nut flush draw is a really really strong hand here.



[/ QUOTE ]

Alright. Tell me what hand your opponent flips over next time you are in this spot in a limped pot and the action went:

Pot
Pot
Pot
Pot
All-in
Call

I doubt you'll be thrilled with your pot equity.

I guess you're also the guy that will get all in for 400BB each with me with JJxx on a J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif flop.

[fuzzbox]

Post deleted by fuzzbox

[scdavis0]

I contend that your opponent is not remotely competent.

Against an unknown with this action putting in all those bets is -EV against his hand range. If you had a read in this instance that your opponent sucked, then posting it is irrelevant.

Do try not to be so results oriented.

[Trix]

Why do you bet less than pot ?