Anyone hate this?

[macdaddy991]

Villans are standard.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

I would fold preflop. Otherwise looks good to me.

[milesdyson]

villains are standard????

i like preflop, flop, and turn. i would raise the river and expect him to call enough with worse hands that i could profitably commit, before raising, to call his 3-bet (if he happens to have teh nutz).

[macdaddy991]

[ QUOTE ]
villains are standard????



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Nothing special, typical 1/2 6 max donks

[macdaddy991]

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I would fold preflop.

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Ya, I think I am going through my Ray Zee "loose aggressive" phase right now.

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I would fold preflop.

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Ya, I think I am going through my Ray Zee "loose aggressive" phase right now.

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When I consider raising with a hand like QJ or
Q10 here, I think the most important thing is what kind of fold equity does the PFR give me if an A or K flops and donko doesn't have A or K. b/c without that I don't think these hands are good enough.

[milesdyson]

this is a good raise on the button 4-handed.

[Disconnected]

I'd call OTB with the limper in front of me. Given the raise, I'd play flop and turn the same way, but would raise the river. It would suck to be 3 bet (I would call), but there are many times when he'll call your raise with a worse hand, too.

[Disconnected]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a good raise on the button 4-handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

For value? Isolating the open-limper? Fold equity postflop? All of the above?

When there's already a limper or two in the pot, I haven't been raising the little offsuit broadways, and haven't been giving it much thought either, so I'm interested to hear what the raise does for us here.

My rationale for limping behind another limper is that I don't have a big equity edge, so I'd just as soon see a flop cheap, and I've already got the button. On the flop, I'll see a more natural reaction from the players in front of me, too. Plus, if I hit TP and it's checked to me, a bet will give worse odds to anyone chasing.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if I hit TP and it's checked to me, a bet will give worse odds to anyone chasing.

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this isn't always good. if you raise preflop and get one caller from the blinds and the original limper, the pot ends up around 6-7 sb. they are already making a mistake by calling with a lot of hands, and the increased pot size most likely makes them draw incorrectly more often.

to answer your first question...

-yeah it's for value against his range and the blinds' random hands.
-it prevents the blinds from seeing a cheap/free flop (ideally they both fold).
-we will be representing a larger hand. an ace or king high flop is good for us most of the time when we raise preflop.
-if they begin to "react" to us raising hands like QT, they will also "react" when we have our best hands.
-raising is fun and we should do it a lot in position against bad players.

[Kumubou]

Man, miles said everything I was going to say. -_- I am raising this all day against one loose-bad pre-flop limper on the button in a 6max game. Turn is fine, and the river is definately worth a raise as the amount of hands a typical LPP will call here with is massive, and only the A/images/graemlins/club.gif beats you here (or the highly unlikely 5/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif or 5/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif).

People who want to fold this pre-flop are being weak-tight. The game is four-handed, what the hell are you waiting for -- suited aces? Sure if you are second to act in a ten-handed game this is an easy fold, but not when the game is this short.

The one question I may bring up is with auto-betting the flop. That really depends on the likelyhood of them folding or checkraising you on the flop. Against two unknowns is probably where it is thin either way. You are not likely to fold out both players, but you do not need to do so often. If they both fold roughly 20% of the time, you profit (this is to account for the fact that you may get checckraised). HU I would almost always bet (especially against a bad, predictable player) whereas with 4 or more to the flop I would just check (as the odds of winning UI and/or folding everyone are roughly zip).

-K

[lautzutao]

Raising this PF from this position is pushing it.
Everything else seems fine to me. The flop bet isn't horrible if you know your opponents are capable of folding but if they aren't I think you're spewing and should check...

And raise the river...? We have the second nut flush draw, and our raise will get called by any draw lower than ours. Yes, no?

Preflop - Good

Flop - eh? I would like to see a call here, I don't think that you can claim rising for value, and you don't have 2 overcards, or an A, plus the board is coordinated. I think it is close, but I am usually going to call this.

Turn - good

River - BAD - you have to raise this, if it gets raised back to you, then call, but only 1 card in the deck beats you.

Margon

[Nick Royale]

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this is a good raise on the button 4-handed.

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This is a good raise 10-handed in CO...

[Nick Royale]

I think calling preflop in situations like this is a very common mistake among microers. This is a very good place to deviate from the SSH preflop chart. MilesD have already posted why.

EDIT: I'm aware op raised preflop, I'm just seeing so many comments about it being wrong...

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling preflop in situations like this is a very common mistake among microers. This is a very good place to deviate from the SSH preflop chart. MilesD have already posted why.


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I agree, but if people don't feel they are strong post flop, it maybe better to just fold pf.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think calling preflop in situations like this is a very common mistake among microers. This is a very good place to deviate from the SSH preflop chart. MilesD have already posted why.


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I agree, but if people don't feel they are strong post flop, it maybe better to just fold pf.

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It's very easy to play this hand profitable. I honestly think you shouldn't sit at a 6max table if you're not planning to raise in a situation like this. If you want to improve your game there's no excuse for not raising here. If you're not comfortable playing this hand for a raise you better start doing it so learn how to play it.

I would play the same.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a good raise on the button 4-handed.

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once I noticed it was 4 handed I was going to post this. I might fold this in a 6 handed game if UTG is only kind of bad. but if he is terrible then I'd still raise

also postflop good.

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Man, miles said everything I was going to say. -_- I am raising this all day against one loose-bad pre-flop limper on the button in a 6max game. Turn is fine, and the river is definately worth a raise as the amount of hands a typical LPP will call here with is massive, and only the A/images/graemlins/club.gif beats you here (or the highly unlikely 5/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif or 5/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif).

People who want to fold this pre-flop are being weak-tight. The game is four-handed, what the hell are you waiting for -- suited aces? Sure if you are second to act in a ten-handed game this is an easy fold, but not when the game is this short.

The one question I may bring up is with auto-betting the flop. That really depends on the likelyhood of them folding or checkraising you on the flop. Against two unknowns is probably where it is thin either way. You are not likely to fold out both players, but you do not need to do so often. If they both fold roughly 20% of the time, you profit (this is to account for the fact that you may get checckraised). HU I would almost always bet (especially against a bad, predictable player) whereas with 4 or more to the flop I would just check (as the odds of winning UI and/or folding everyone are roughly zip).

-K

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Yeah I didn't realize this was four handed.

If standard means LPP at party 1/2 6-max, then autobetting that flop is not good. I think you can raise that river, because a lot of LPP's are calling with a lower club. I might just call if SB had a low post-flop aggression.

edit: wrong word

[DoomSlice]

The only reason I will not raise here is if one or more of the blinds are exceptionally tricky. QTo is certainly not easy to play postflop unless you hit (or just plan on folding, but then what's the point of the raise?).

[Shillx]

1st thought: Raise any river card that doesn't make you a pair. What do we think??

Brad

Edit - Or an ace.
Re-edit - Damn didn't see the board pair on 4th. Still worth a shot?

[DoomSlice]

I'm almost leaning towards a raise on the river. You won't believe how many times you'll still be called by a worse club or trip 6s.

[Nick Royale]

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The only reason I will not raise here is if one or more of the blinds are exceptionally tricky. QTo is certainly not easy to play postflop unless you hit (or just plan on folding, but then what's the point of the raise?).

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With position HU it is. With position 3-ways it a little harder, but still not hard. It's easy to let go off if you meet resistance and we'll often be able to bluff when aces and kings fall. Besides we put the pressure of hitting the flop on our opponents.

In CO with a tight limper and a loose button/blinds I don't think it's a raise, but most often it is. How to play it depends on your opponents as usual.