hand v xorbie [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

2PAUL2

10-25-2005, 11:14 AM

never played with him bfore. dont think he knew i was 2+2. been at the table for a few rounds only an he doesnt seem to be going too crazy.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button ($183.50)
Hero ($185.69)
BB ($103.75)
UTG ($107.70)
MP ($122.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, MP raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $11.5, 1 fold, MP calls $8.

really not sure whether raising or calling is best here, raising is fun though...

Flop: ($25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)


 hero...

is it worth betting against xorbies range here. he took a while to call the pf reraise, dunno what that means. check folding would just feel really week.

thx

paul

10-25-2005, 11:16 AM

I can't resist betting 15-20 here, or else I can't sleep at night

10-25-2005, 11:20 AM

I put him on 22-QQ and AK and I would bet. Not really to protect my hand, but to get him to fold his small pair and possibly avoid tough decisions later in the hand.

Dumle

NickPoker

10-25-2005, 11:22 AM

Can't answer in regards to Xorbie, but in general I would Contiuation bet here. IMO opinion it will be tough for him to call without an Ace or better. If calls shut it down because your probably beat. Preflop I am not a fan of the reraise with JJ OOP especially since you said Xorbie had not been "crazy" to this point.

10-25-2005, 11:26 AM

Xorbie's raising standards is probably very wide in the CO, given that he opened, and I would reraise here every time.

Dumle

The_Bends

10-25-2005, 11:26 AM

I'd CB. He almost certianly has to give you credit for the Ace so unless he has AK, QQ or 33 you're probably gonna force him to fold.

Again this is not Xorbie specific advice, I don't really know how he plays.

Ghazban

10-25-2005, 11:27 AM

I bet 2/3-potish and don't put another dime in the pot if I'm called/raised. Him taking a while to call the raise means nothing as he's always 4-tabling (or more) and slowing all of them down.

arod15

10-25-2005, 11:32 AM

Bet 20 on the flop fold to a raise. Checking is not an option....

scrapperdog

10-25-2005, 11:47 AM

I check fold. Two overcards flopped that is just a crap flop for jacks. Sometimes I take a shot at it on the flop, most of the time wait for a better spot. This is double true against someone I know is a good player and I am OOP.

swolfe

10-25-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check fold. Two overcards flopped that is just a crap flop for jacks. Sometimes I take a shot at it on the flop, most of the time wait for a better spot. This is double true against someone I know is a good player and I am OOP.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

dude, weak...

mosuavea

10-25-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check fold. Two overcards flopped that is just a crap flop for jacks. Sometimes I take a shot at it on the flop, most of the time wait for a better spot. This is double true against someone I know is a good player and I am OOP.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

dude, weak...

[/ QUOTE ]

You got that right, seems to be a trend lately

scrapperdog

10-25-2005, 12:30 PM

swolfe

10-25-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to call this weak that is fine. Just dont use the "strong poker" excuse to keep going if you get called. Jacks is a nice hand, this is a horrible flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

the continuation bet isn't about what you actually hold...it's about what you think your opponent has and representing something that beats them. checking here will allow an aggressive player like xorbie to take it away from you with pocket 2's.

Kyo Souma II

10-25-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check fold. Two overcards flopped that is just a crap flop for jacks. Sometimes I take a shot at it on the flop, most of the time wait for a better spot. This is double true against someone I know is a good player and I am OOP.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

dude, weak...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to call this weak that is fine. Just dont use the "strong poker" excuse to keep going if you get called. Jacks is a nice hand, this is a horrible flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get a lot of hands to fold with a bet. Think about it.

-kyo

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check fold. Two overcards flopped that is just a crap flop for jacks. Sometimes I take a shot at it on the flop, most of the time wait for a better spot. This is double true against someone I know is a good player and I am OOP.

[/ QUOTE ] /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

dude, weak...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to call this weak that is fine. Just dont use the "strong poker" excuse to keep going if you get called. Jacks is a nice hand, this is a horrible flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get a lot of hands to fold with a bet. Think about it.

-kyo

[/ QUOTE ]
Normally I agree with this. Against Xorbie, though, I think you really have to think about your lines here. What is Hero's hand range for re-raising OOP? If he knows you're tight, he might give you AA-JJ as a hand range. In which case, you're very likely going to face a raise on this flop or a call to take away on turn. You would from me.

swolfe

10-25-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I agree with this. Against Xorbie, though, I think you really have to think about your lines here. What is Hero's hand range for re-raising OOP? If he knows you're tight, he might give you AA-JJ as a hand range. In which case, you're very likely going to face a raise on this flop or a call to take away on turn. You would from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would try to take this away with a delayed bluff or something when half the time (based on the range you gave) you'll be looking at a big set?

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 01:01 PM

It's not half the time. It's less.

scrapperdog

10-25-2005, 01:04 PM

I use the continuation bet a little less than most but I do use it and like it. If I have a PP and 1 overcard comes I will use it. When 2 overcards come I usually slow down if I am out of position and against a tricky, good player. In the past I have thought I was not missing out on too much money by doing this... might re-evaluate if everyone on the forum this this is bad.

starvs

10-25-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Normally I agree with this. Against Xorbie, though, I think you really have to think about your lines here. What is Hero's hand range for re-raising OOP? If he knows you're tight, he might give you AA-JJ as a hand range. In which case, you're very likely going to face a raise on this flop or a call to take away on turn. You would from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would try to take this away with a delayed bluff or something when half the time (based on the range you gave) you'll be looking at a big set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get that either. TWP, are you saying that if you had a AA or QQ here you would often check, so when 2Paul2 bets here you assume he does not have a set, thus can take it away later?

xorbie

10-25-2005, 01:13 PM

FWIW my calling standards here are probably most everything I raised with that is suited and connected or paired, and I will not be auto betting this flop if checked to.

scrapperdog

10-25-2005, 01:47 PM

can we get results?

2PAUL2

10-25-2005, 02:35 PM

i bet 15 an he called. i checked an folded to a bet of 30 on a blank turn. something didnt feel right but i dont see any other way of playing it.

thx for the comments

paul

xorbie

10-25-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i bet 15 an he called. i checked an folded to a bet of 30 on a blank turn. something didnt feel right but i dont see any other way of playing it.

thx for the comments

paul

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, this is definitely how I would play sat TJs.

As the case was, you got lucky with a reverse suckout against my AA. Meh.

2PAUL2

10-25-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

For the record, this is definitely how I would play sat TJs.

As the case was, you got lucky with a reverse suckout against my AA. Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol /images/graemlins/tongue.gif i thought about pushing thinking you would be hard pressed to call without AA/QQ. glad i ddint now.

paul

rikz

10-25-2005, 03:13 PM

Bet $20, but shut down after that. He'll call and/or play back with AK/AQ/QQ/AJ/ATs, etc, in which case you're done. I wouldn't try to push him off after he calls or raises a continuaiton bet. But he'll probably respect your reraise and continuation bet if he holds 88, 99, TT, JJ, some kind of suited connector like 89s, or even KK (but he probably would have 3-bet preflop with KK). AA for villain is unlikely since he probably would have 3-bet preflop, too.

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i bet 15 an he called. i checked an folded to a bet of 30 on a blank turn. something didnt feel right but i dont see any other way of playing it.

thx for the comments

paul

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, this is definitely how I would play sat TJs.

As the case was, you got lucky with a reverse suckout against my AA. Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whoa, I don't really like this at all, I must admit. Against a tight re-raiser I am 3-betting AA almost all of the time. Sure you can try to trap him, but he is not going to be folding preflop very often since his range is pretty tight and pretty strong. And he's not going to c/f KK or whatever on a ragged flop even after you 3-bet preflop. I understand that people say not to 3-bet these hands, but I still think it is wrong. I 3-bet AA/KK here all the time when he is on a hand range like AA-JJ. Definitely AA. Sometimes not KK.

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Normally I agree with this. Against Xorbie, though, I think you really have to think about your lines here. What is Hero's hand range for re-raising OOP? If he knows you're tight, he might give you AA-JJ as a hand range. In which case, you're very likely going to face a raise on this flop or a call to take away on turn. You would from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you would try to take this away with a delayed bluff or something when half the time (based on the range you gave) you'll be looking at a big set?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't get that either. TWP, are you saying that if you had a AA or QQ here you would often check, so when 2Paul2 bets here you assume he does not have a set, thus can take it away later?

[/ QUOTE ]
He might not bet AA/QQ. But he also might not bet KK/JJ. But basically, there are more combinations of KK/JJ than they are of AA/QQ. And even if we add AK to his range, he can't love the queen on the flop since he is now behind QQ and AQ. So, especially if I have a gutshot or a backdoor flush draw or whatever, I am likely to call the flop in position and then try to steal on the turn if he checks.

Mackerel

10-25-2005, 03:49 PM

Hey TWP,

Don't mean to highjack the thread, but a question for you. Do you get CR'd a lot? Against players who are as aggro as you, I love to CR 'em BIG regularly, and I'm finding more people taking that approach with me when I'm LAGing it up lately. Have you found a standard line you like against this, or do you just slow down when this starts happening? Usually, I've found myself forced to slow down some and try to get them to pull their big CR when I'm strong enough to get it in the middle (which might not be all that particularly strong, depending on how often they're doing it). Just curious.

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 03:56 PM

No. People do not check/raise often. And when a player starts to check/raise me I adjust against him. I become more likely to take free cards. I become more likely 3-bet over his check/raises. Obviously you can't do the same thing that you were doing once he adjusts to you. I usually give up the first one or two times he check/raises and then once I see that his check/raise frequency has actually changed and it is not just that he was getting a run of cards then I adjust my betting frequency against him.

Hattifnatt

10-25-2005, 04:17 PM

I check here and fold to a decent bet. xorbie or not.

2PAUL2

10-25-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a tight re-raiser I am 3-betting AA almost all of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

im not a tight reraiser.

paul

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a tight re-raiser I am 3-betting AA almost all of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

im not a tight reraiser.

paul

[/ QUOTE ]
You should be.

2PAUL2

10-25-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

against xorbie opening from the co...
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

paul

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

against xorbie opening from the co...
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

paul

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair point. But I actually think it is even more imperative to re-raise in this case since you will have a wider hand. Against a tight re-raiser I will 3-bet often because they have a tight range and it is strong and they aren't likely to fold it (even though they should at times). But it is okay to call to trap because you have a decent sense of their range. But against a looser raiser, I think you MUST 3-bet because otherwise when the flop comes 567 you could easily lose your stack to a trickily re-raised 55. Whereas against the tight re-raiser you know you are ahead.

xorbie

10-25-2005, 07:04 PM

I don't 3-bet often, and I think it would sort of suck in this situation. My hand is super well concealed, if flop comes all unders I am taking his stack, I like that. I really don't think I can find a hand in my databse where I 3-bet against anyone but a total donk, or if I've been playing uber maniac. People just aren't that willing to burn money post flop.

TheWorstPlayer

10-25-2005, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People just aren't that willing to burn money post flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe you didn't see my two hands at the same time on different tables? If you're not 3-betting AA/KK preflop you are losing money. People will burn PLENTY of money postflop ANYWAYS.