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10-25-2005, 08:03 AM
i kind of played this hand weird....what should i do here....i put him on a Tx after the flop...maybe even a jt....any thoughts on my turn bet or river bet(very weak bet..i know)....

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: viagarafalls ( $955 )
Seat 2: uks86 ( $1005 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $1035 )
Seat 4: dugdug23 ( $1050 )
Seat 5: dontavich ( $1020 )
Seat 6: viorel30 ( $975 )
Seat 7: VILLAN ( $940 )
Seat 8: gaimer ( $1000 )
Seat 9: semisotyi ( $1075 )
Seat 10: tburky ( $945 )
Trny:16863682 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO[ Kd Jh ]
dontavich folds.
viorel30 folds.
VILLAN calls [15].
gaimer folds.
semisotyi folds.
tburky folds.
viagarafalls folds.
uks86 folds.
HERO calls [5].
dugdug23 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 9c, Js ]
HERO checks.
dugdug23 checks.
VILLAN bets [35].
HERO raises [125].
dugdug23 folds.
VILLAN calls [90].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
HERO bets [175].
VILLAN calls [175].
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
HERO bets [150].
VILLAN is all-In [625]
HERO ?????

tigerite
10-25-2005, 08:05 AM
I would not raise this flop with KJ, it is too draw-heavy and your implied odds are all shot to pieces. Call and lead the turn if it's a relatively safe card.

10-25-2005, 08:06 AM
but what should ive done on the river....the initial bet and the allin call decision

tigerite
10-25-2005, 08:08 AM
Well your line has now left you hoping he has JT rather than knowing anything at all about his hand. He could have AA here for all you know. You obviously have to fold this river with top pair K kicker, at such an early stage. This is why the line you took won't get you anywhere.

Melchiades
10-25-2005, 08:10 AM
I'm pretty sure you are behind here. I check-call a reasonable bet on the river. Fold to the all in. Really not my place to give advice in 109's though, but in my 16's and 27's, that is my line. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-25-2005, 08:12 AM
I fold this river. I agree with tigerite though, I would definitely not raise this flop, yuck.

zambonidrivr
10-25-2005, 08:45 AM
fold preflop

10-25-2005, 08:53 AM
Is that all you have to say, fold preflop to save 5 (count em 5!) chips? Don't be such a pussy.

Double Down
10-25-2005, 08:56 AM
On the river, pot is 600. You bet 150. It's a sign of weakness, makes it look like you have J10, QJ, or KJ, and want to see a cheap showdown.
If your opponent had aj or qq-aa, or even a set, I think he would've raised the turn. But not the river, cause you look weak and wouldn't pay off a bet. Put yourself in his shoes. If you have qq, would you raise allin on the river? Of course not, the other guy would only call if he had you beat.
I think he saw an opening to bluff you off your hand. I'll bet he had j10 or 10,9. I would call.

bigt439
10-25-2005, 09:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible advice with any two cards. Maybe you were joking.

I don't love the c/r, but considering you did c/r the flop, the turn is good, but you have to shut down on the river. This guy has shown a lot of strength, I don't know why you "put him on a T"... He could easily play a straight like this, and I probably would actually. Having said that, made hands other than straights usually find a raise somewhere. I get your point about the T, but it's too narrow minded IMO. Runner runner flush got there too, which is unlikelyish, but makes sense. I like checking the river and re-evaluating. If you don't have a read you really can't take much heat, but that's fine. As it stands it's kind of unlikely the guy is bluffing given the odds you're getting on your call. You did make your hand look weak as hell though. I honestly think a check may look stronger than your blocking bet (to a good opponent, not necessarily him). I fold this river, but I check it next time, confident I'm throwing away my worst hand to alot of heat, although I don't love it.

PinkSteel
10-25-2005, 09:09 AM
I don't hate the flop checkraise, but if I did it I would do it for more; villain's getting 2:1 pot odds; if I had a T I'd call you.

Check the turn. He called your flop raise, he likes his hand, it's pot control time. Sure he may be drawing and get a free card, but he may also already have you beat.

Fold the river all-in.

Caveat: I usually play cash games, am probably a tournament idiot.

Double Down
10-25-2005, 09:11 AM
Put yourself in the opponent's shoes. If a flop raiser and turn bettor only bets 150 into a 600 pot on the river, I'm pushing with whatever I have! He no longer likes his hand and is already setting himself up to fold by betting such a small bet. He's saying, "I don't want to check 'cuz I don't want to have to face a tough decision, so I'll bet just a little. If he raises I know I'm beat and can fold." And that is what you were saying, because you have KJ.

I think that the only hand you're going to see beating you on the river is the flopped nut straight, q10. Any other good hand that beats you is too vulnerable to not raise you on the turn.

Double Down
10-25-2005, 09:14 AM
"Check the turn. He called your flop raise, he likes his hand, it's pot control time. Sure he may be drawing and get a free card, but he may also already have you beat."

Disagree. If you check the turn and he bets, you have no idea where you're at. You can only safely fold if you make the bet you did, because if he raises, THEN you know he has overpair or better. But checking gives the opponent too many options.

bigt439
10-25-2005, 09:14 AM
Meh. Your first paragraph makes sense, but alot of people suck and don't think things out ahead of time so I don't know who well it works in application. People may think damn I don't like that card, bet small, get showdown, and then when they're pushed into be like, well its only 450 more into a big pot. I think the more chips you have the better your plan is.

By the way, I think the low straight and a flush can turn up here sooooometimes. But point well taken about QT.

bigt439
10-25-2005, 09:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"Check the turn. He called your flop raise, he likes his hand, it's pot control time. Sure he may be drawing and get a free card, but he may also already have you beat."

Disagree. If you check the turn and he bets, you have no idea where you're at. You can only safely fold if you make the bet you did, because if he raises, THEN you know he has overpair or better. But checking gives the opponent too many options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. This is part of the problem with the flop c/r, you pretty much have to bet the turn.

10-25-2005, 09:36 AM
yea i had to make a bet on the turn....but has anyone thought about Tx of spades....should i have bet more on the turn??....and he had A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif....given the actions prior to the river(wether you agree or disagree)...what shoulda been my actions on river....should have bet more or just check....

PinkSteel
10-25-2005, 09:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Check the turn. He called your flop raise, he likes his hand, it's pot control time. Sure he may be drawing and get a free card, but he may also already have you beat."

Disagree. If you check the turn and he bets, you have no idea where you're at. You can only safely fold if you make the bet you did, because if he raises, THEN you know he has overpair or better. But checking gives the opponent too many options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. This is part of the problem with the flop c/r, you pretty much have to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you put more money into the pot OOP against an opponent who just called your checkraise?

I'm not arguing about the flop checkraise being a good idea -- I'd do it sometimes but certainly not often, and I agree it puts you in exactly this tough turn spot.

But as played, why would you put a single additional chip into the pot? Your fold equity has to be -->0, and you're very likely behind.

zambonidrivr
10-25-2005, 09:43 AM
Fine, call but go into the hand causiously, with the expectation to fold. no need to dig a grave this early

10-25-2005, 09:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Check the turn. He called your flop raise, he likes his hand, it's pot control time. Sure he may be drawing and get a free card, but he may also already have you beat."

Disagree. If you check the turn and he bets, you have no idea where you're at. You can only safely fold if you make the bet you did, because if he raises, THEN you know he has overpair or better. But checking gives the opponent too many options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. This is part of the problem with the flop c/r, you pretty much have to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you put more money into the pot OOP against an opponent who just called your checkraise?

I'm not arguing about the flop checkraise being a good idea -- I'd do it sometimes but certainly not often, and I agree it puts you in exactly this tough turn spot.

But as played, why would you put a single additional chip into the pot? Your fold equity has to be -->0, and you're very likely behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
i put him on a busted str8 draw and if i check the river i give the same opportunity to make the same bluff attempt.....should have just check folded the river.....thats the general consensus???