88 flops set and gets action

[BigBrother]

MP1 is very loose, somewhat aggro preflop, passive postflop. MP3 is fairly loose passive preflop, pretty aggressive postflop, but these reads are only for 30-50 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (18.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

Final Pot: 24.75 BB


1) Am I losing too much value slowplaying this flop? I am looking to jam a non-heart turn.

2) Turn c/r looks like a given.

3) What's my plan for this river?

[lautzutao]

I 3-bet that flop.

[WillMagic]

I'm checking this flop planning to check-raise. But once MP3 raises it's an awkward spot, so I don't really mind the flop coldcall - I'd like to give MP1 a chance to catch something and not just bulldoze him out of the pot right now. But then...you can't check the turn. MP3 could very easily be drawing here, and a free card would be a total disaster. So I think coldcalling the flop and then donking the turn is the best line.

Will

Jam the flop.

I'm not sure about betting out on the river - MP1 may be typically loose post-flop, but he calls two BBs cold on the turn. He may have 9T, but I think there's a bigger chance the river completed his flush. If he does have a flush, you may be facing two bets cold when it gets back to you on the river. MP3 will bet for you on the river if you're worried about missing out on value. In fact, maybe you should check-raise: after, MP1 checks, it is less likely that he has a flush. I'm pretty sure you have MP3 beaten (AJ, KJ, J8, 55 are likely hands for him).

[krimson]

Your position on the flop relative to the aggressor makes it tough to extract value on the turn. I think you should just 3-bet there and lead the turn.

[BigBrother]

[ QUOTE ]
Your position on the flop relative to the aggressor makes it tough to extract value on the turn. I think you should just 3-bet there and lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

My initial plan was to c/r the flop but when I saw they both liked their hands I decided to wait for the turn. If the turn came heart I would lead, but these guys are betting this turn 99% so c/r seems clear to me.

MP1 could have missed AK in which case he likes the K and will bet it...if he checks MP3 is aggro enough that he is not giving a free card as I have represented a drawing hand and he definitely has at least a J.

What hand range do you put MP1 on that won't pay off a turn c/r? I'm interested in learning why betting out has more value.

I can see that 3-betting the flop will have value against any drawing hand and if I 3-bet I need to lead the turn.

[BigBrother]

Given the action on the turn, what is your line for the river?

[felix83]

I like betting the river, because I can think of some hands that a passive post-flop player in MP1 could have played this way(AA, AJ, AK) and you don't want to check it through and lose value against worse hands. So I think I bet/call one bet, and probably bet/fold if it's 2 more to me.

I bet/call the river.

[Borodog]

Postflop: Jam the whole way until that crappy river, and then bet-call it.

[krimson]

It's not the fact that you miss a c/r, it's that MP3 will bet and your raise then faces MP1 with 2-bb-cold. I think he usually folds (he didn't, but I think more often than not, he will). I think he is more likely to call the 2-sb's on the flop and then call for 1 more on the turn.

Math time.

Wait for turn to raise (where MP1 folds):
Our Investment: 2sb's flop, 2bb turn.
Returns: 4sb's flop, 2bb turn
(3:4)

3-bet on flop:
Out investment: 3sb's flop, 1bb turn
Returns: 6 sb's flop, 2bb turn
(2.5:5)

The math gives what I would consider the "typical" result based on your flop decision. Obviously both lines are prone to earn more than stated.

[droolie]

Working backwards given how you played it....

I like leading the river and calling a raise.

I like leading the turn here and hoping to 3-bet it trapping MP1.

I like jamming this flop by leading it and hoping to 3-bet as MP1 is pasive and it might get checked through to MP3 and you'll have to decide on C/Ring and knocking out MP1 or calling (blech).

[shant]

Switch seats at the table dude.

I like jamming early, taking the lead, and not allowing any free cards to the draws to fall. But seeing as you didn't take the lead, I think the turn and river are pretty good, although I of course wouldn't mind a turn donk.

This is a tricky spot. My guess is that you are up against bottom set, AKh, or JJ. I think that AKh is most likely followed by bottom set. I would bet/call on the end

[BigBrother]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the fact that you miss a c/r, it's that MP3 will bet and your raise then faces MP1 with 2-bb-cold. I think he usually folds (he didn't, but I think more often than not, he will). I think he is more likely to call the 2-sb's on the flop and then call for 1 more on the turn.

Math time.

Wait for turn to raise (where MP1 folds):
Our Investment: 2sb's flop, 2bb turn.
Returns: 4sb's flop, 2bb turn
(3:4)

3-bet on flop:
Out investment: 3sb's flop, 1bb turn
Returns: 6 sb's flop, 2bb turn
(2.5:5)

The math gives what I would consider the "typical" result based on your flop decision. Obviously both lines are prone to earn more than stated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from.

What hands does MP1 call 2 cold on the flop and another on the turn that he would fold for 2 on the turn, remembering that MP1 is the more passive postflop player and MP3 is the more aggro?

I guess leading the turn makes the most sense either way since MP3 is more likely to raise. I'm having trouble being objective because of the results.

[WillMagic]

Bet/call.

Will