The good ship "Athena"

[Cyrus]

Someone wrote in another thread: [ QUOTE ]
"I" am not the same person "I" was two years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an oldie but a goodie:

There was a ship called "Athena", in ancient Greece. Wooden ship, with sails, oars, the works.

At some point, the main sail broke and had to be replaced. The owner took it ashore, where the man who owned the shipyard replaced it. It took some work but the work was done and the ship went on its way again, with a new main sail.

The shipyard had a habit of never throwing away anything, so they kept the old main sail and in fact repaired it and stored it.

After a couple of months, the "Athena" went to the yard again, this time to replace its oars. The shipyard fitted it with new oars and sent it on its way. And also kept the old oars.

You can tell where this is leading: After a year, the "Athena" had discarded every single item, down to the wooden plaque with the ship's name on it, and replaced it with an exact-looking, brand new item. The ship was sailing the seas with lickety-spit, brand new items, a glorious sight.

And, of course, the shipyard kept all the damaged, discarded stuff - and repaired it.

One day, the shipyard onwer put his men to work and they assembled a ship out of all the discarded items of the "Athena". In a short time, they had a complete ship in their hands, with a wooden plaque on it saying "Athena" even.

Which they put to sea.

..The question is: Which ship is the "Athena" ?

They are both alive and dead at the same time...... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Replace the ship with a Classic show car. When the guy replaces every single piece of the car, is it still a classic? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tek]

Is it just the hull that is the boat or is the original body the actual car? Good questions.

However, the best question has been asked by science fiction writers. If someone gets new artificial robotic legs, hips, knees, lungs, etc when are they not the same person? Is it just the brain that is us? (And the notional soul, whereever that is?)

Does Athena have a soul? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[David Sklansky]

"However, the best question has been asked by science fiction writers. If someone gets new artificial robotic legs, hips, knees, lungs, etc when are they not the same person? Is it just the brain that is us? (And the notional soul, whereever that is?)"

Of course that would still be you. The tough question is whether even a different brain could still be you.

[tek]

What if someone has alzheimers? Are they still the same person?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
What if someone has alzheimers? Are they still the same person?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like it or not, no they aren't. They never really become another person, but they do stop being the person they used to be at some point.

Mack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if someone has alzheimers? Are they still the same person?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like it or not, no they aren't. They never really become another person, but they do stop being the person they used to be at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

So... they aren't a another (different) person, but they are no longer the same person. Hmmm... So, they aren't a person? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[mackthefork]

They are strangers to people they knew for a life-time, a different person every day, not pleasant for anyone involved. Just as horrible if not worse for the family as the person who is sick, would you like to visit a person who had no idea who you were, and never would, I know I wouldn't, but they have to.

Mack

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course that would still be you. The tough question is whether even a different brain could still be you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we've established that a different brain, so to speak, would make one a different person (alzheimers, amnesia, etc).

I disagree with your reply about different bodies. IMO people who lose weight (such as gastric bypass) after having been obese for most of their life would change. Same with people who become severly physically handicapped. And in my previous example I still say if one received artifical legs and arms, one would be different.

By different, I mean a different meta outlook. I have no experience in these matters, so these are just guesses (similar to your guesses about religion).

The problem here is that you are trying to convince us that a sailboat has its own identity, like a human being does.

Is the sailboat its own real entity, or is it just a collection of wooden planks and cloth sails? Another example would be: Does Water exist? Or is it just an abstraction we've created in our minds to identify a collection of H2O molecules.

Obviously you can stretch this concept out ad infinitum, but you get my point.

Now what you could potentially derive from this, is do WE really exist? Or are our brains just a collection of neurons and chemicals reacting according to the laws of physics, unable to truly make its own choices any more than an electronic computer?

[ QUOTE ]
Now what you could potentially derive from this, is do WE really exist? Or are our brains just a collection of neurons and chemicals reacting according to the laws of physics, unable to truly make its own choices any more than an electronic computer?

[/ QUOTE ]

That has my vote. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is that you are trying to convince us that a sailboat has its own identity, like a human being does.
<font color="white">. </font>
Is the sailboat its own real entity, or is it just a collection of wooden planks and cloth sails? Another example would be: Does Water exist? Or is it just an abstraction we've created in our minds to identify a collection of H2O molecules.

[/ QUOTE ]
Water exists. And, yes, the term "water" is short-hand for that collection of Hydrogen-and-Oxygene molecules you mentioned.

Water has no "identity" like a person does -- or a ship on which we assign a name.

But specific masses of water do have an "identity" -- and get a name e.g. Lake Titicaca.

In fact, we could construct an "Athena"-like thought experiment about Titicaca. Suppose we take the whole water out of that lake, dry it completely, and pour it inside the Grand Canyon. Do we have Titicaca transported to the Grand Canyon then? And, if we would fill up the empty basin in the Peruvian border to Bolivia once more, which of the two lakes is Titicaca?

I would argue that Titicaca would be the one in South America, on the basis of the original geographical location. Which (aha!) makes "geographical location" the defining criterion for a lake's identity. (This could be a true-life example and not just a thought experiment, actually, whereby through some earth underground movements the water from lake X drains out and re-appears miles away as lake Y.)

So, which is the "defining criterion" for the good ship "Athena"?

...And, to the point, which is it for humans?

(Sklansky says the brain. I say consciousness. We are saying the same thing.)

[hmkpoker]

I think it was me who said that thing you mentioned in the beginning.

[ QUOTE ]
..The question is: Which ship is the "Athena" ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insubstantial, relative and completely subjective. It all depends on the eye of the beholder.