finally got a video to work

[Victor]

herer is 25 minutes of 4tablin 10/20. i feel i played decent. the tables werent that good and my position sucked as there were a 35/25s on my left that kept trying to outplay me. so, there should be some interesting situations. video (http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1GQ6T16TVD57C3QD88SNG01YU2)

[SteveY]

your link goes to stealthcow's vid

[Victor]

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your link goes to stealthcow's vid

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poor pasting skills. problem solved no tho.

[SteveY]

i watched some of it but i found it super hard to keep track b/c im singletabling right now, so i only watched for 3 mins. :/

some hands i thought were interesting:

0:46 bottom left: you float KQo on the button vs neveraboat's UTG raise.

~2:00 top right: SB (readless) completes, you raise J9s, SB calls. FLOP T84, check, bet, call. Turn 2 completing the rainbow. check check. My default is to bet here even vs unknowns. Just wondering what your thoughts were on betting vs checking the turn. (hand ends with 5 hitting the river, check, you bet, fold, you win)

2:39 top right: neverabot raises UTG, 3 folds, you coolcall SB with QJs. (BB was 27/18)

I assume both your plays vs neveraboat (53/20/1.15) were read based / non-standard? And even then why not 3bet instead of CC/floating in the first hand?

[Victor]

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0:46 bottom left: you float KQo on the button vs neveraboat's UTG raise.

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dude is fish and plays very predictably postflop albeit he is never gonna fold a pair hu. one of his other main weaknesses is giving up free cards oop bc he has dick or is trying to cr. i think that actually happened on this hand.

j9 hand: basically i didnt want to get checkraised and i figured he isnt calling the flop with air too often.

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2:39 top right: neverabot raises UTG, 3 folds, you coolcall SB with QJs. (BB was 27/18)

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this is proly too loose.

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And even then why not 3bet instead of CC/floating in the first hand?

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i usually 3bet but i had been playing with this guy for quite a few hands before i started recording so i was just mixing it up.

[SteveY]

k thanks.

he did in fact give you a freebie in the first hand

and i'll think about that j9 hand b/c i thought for sure you would bet the turn. maybe im too bet-happy in those kind of spots.

[Danenania]

You should 3-bet that 53/20 guy when you have KQo on the button. Don't like coldcalling.

You should bet the turn when you have J9 and flop an OESD. People love to peel flops and fold turns HU. I don't think you are getting CR'd very often based on the tempo. I also don't really like the river bet. It looks too obvious and he probably folded a worse hand.

QJs in SB against a laggy MP raise.. I fold or 3-bet, but fold against this guy.

77 against a 41/13/.7. He checkraises Q-high flop. Don't like your turn raise after you pick up the gutshot.

You raise QTo. Laggy BB 3-bets. You call and flop comes K-high. You call with no pair, no draw?? Fold that.

Nice AKs value bet against tigerU.

QTo in BB against a 71/35 button steal raise. Why 3-bet? Call and flop a hand cause you will need one.

Q9s against 37/27. Flop Q-high with two clubs. I would call the river raise. That guy is very aggro and the K is a good bluff card. Also, no berating in the chat window! You know better.

63s blind defense against button. The guy's PFR is only 12 so I would fold this PF.

Blind defense with 33 against 30/24 CO raise. Flop KTx with two clubs. I think you give up too much by check/folding here. I would probably check/call flop and check/call any turn besides a J, Q, or A then check/fold river.

18/7/1.7 open raises from SB and you defend with 86o. Flop AT6 with two diamonds. I would raise the flop and go from there.

NICE turn screwplay with AQs. I should do that more.

QJo flop ATx, turn something. You check behind on turn then bluff river. Don't like the bluff.

30/24 raises from CO. You call in SB with A9o? 3-bet or fold.

QJo flop Q-high. You checkraise flop, bet turn. River comes an Ace and you miss a value bet.

A3o, you attempt to steal from button and get 3-bet by SB. You call a drawy flop, then raise a 4-straight turn, then bluff river and fold to c/r. HATE the river bet. There's nothig he's calling the turn with that won't call the river.

68/33 raises from MP. You call in SB with A8s. I know BB is pretty tight but I still like a 3-bet better.

Those are the ones I thought worthy of comment. I'm sure I missed a few.

[Stefan_K]

why all the chatting?

[MAxx]

posting blind... and then i'll enjoy seeing what some others picked up on.

anyway, i thought you were playing very solid and made some plays that were very good. i wont comment on them, but i was impressed.

FYI, I was facing a few distractions, so i did not really see everyhand from all four tables- I definitely missed some things.

I thought the J9s hand was kind of interesting when you checked the turn and led the river unimiproved after his turn check. I typically would have led the turn and hoped for him to fold to my bet, and if he didnt- hope i'd improve. Your play looks good, vs some opponents....i think.

I'd threebet the KQ vs that preflop lagtard... instead of coldcalling.

There were 2 hands vs Tiger that caught my eye. The first one was the free-showdown play with the 77. We have a fairly passive opponent and put the free showdown raise in, but he bounces back on the river. I don't think this guy is bluffing or valuebetting you with a worse hand often enough here to call this bet. I'd definitley call vs other players, but I'd consider folding this one here.

The other questionable play was the river value bet with AK after he raised pf from the button with 44. I think I may check/fold here vs this opponent. I could understand your approach more if you had witnessed him bet when checked to with garbage in the past.

Thought you played the Q9s hand well when you got river cr'd when the K hit. The Chat is not hot... I think you can take satisfaction in the fact that you are a better player and played the hand better than he could have and not giving him the satisfaction of knowing he got under your skin. If you were looking for a headsup match again, then ignore my comment /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Why call TurboCarls's SB stealraise w/86o (he is 18/7 pf)

The AQs unimproved/undrawing oop turn cr was an interesting play vs the 30/24. I don't really know what to make of it, it just caught my eye.

[Nietzsche]

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Why call TurboCarls's SB stealraise w/86o (he is 18/7 pf)


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Just a comment about this guy's stats and how 50 hands can be misleading (Victor had 57 hands on him at that point). I have played this guy a lot lately and I remember that after the first 50 hands or so I had him down as somthing like 37/27 leading me to call him down often with very marginal stuff (which was a mistake, this guy valuebets relentlessly and often checks when he doesn't have it).

Now after 1600 hands on him it turns out he is a standard 25/18 TAG preflop, 33% ATS (2+2 probably). So we really need to take the number of hands into account.

[MAxx]

thats a good point about considering hand count. I gotta go on the read i have here, even if it is incomplete, and...seems like a clear fold. FWIW I do not think calling 86o against a standard 25/18 TAG all the time would be correct either.

[Nietzsche]

I'm not loose enough to call 86o in the BB in this spot either, not even if he was 37/27.

Just thought it was interesting, and very surprising, how slow the preflop stats converged in this case. And how wildly different they started out in Victor's and my database.

[Danenania]

Even if he's only raising his top 10.3% of hands from the SB, which seems conservative, Pstove says we have 29.5% equity. Along with position, that seems like plenty. Btw, I keyed in my standard raising range from the SB against a tight player and got 46...just as a reference. His equity against me would be 35%.

Also, keeping this same 10.3% range Vic has 26% equity on the flop, so he definitely shouldn't fold the flop. Then on the turn I recall a low diamond hitting. I used the 3d.. and this card decreases his equity to 20%..assuming the opponent is autobetting turn which he won't always be doing. It's getting closer but sounds like again we probably shouldn't fold. Imo, since we aren't looking ot get away from this one, raising the flop is the best choice and makes the hand easiest to play.

Also note the flop and turn numbers change drastically when more PFR hands are added. Against me, Vic would have an equity of 43.7% on that flop and 39.5% on that 3d turn... in other words, folding would be disaster.

[MAxx]

That's a good point. I do play this some of the time for metagame and the fact that hot & cold it's plus ev. Do you advise on playing this 100% of the time? I mean to question because it is not a hot and cold world. You have to pretty much have to get a hit on the flop (or a straigh draw) or bluff. It can be hard to realize the full value, not to mention reverse implied when you hit or if you hit bp/mp.

[Danenania]

Well, position is huge. I'm not sure how to figure this out, but I wonder how often we flop either a pair, oesd, or gutshot, because I'd be raising all of those and often making better hands fold at some point in the case of the latter two. I'd also be raising a bunch of flops that look unlikely to hit him but that he can't really play back on. Examples are flops like K74, Q55, etc. Flops where he can't really do much unless he has a pair (which is unlikely). Even A-high and lower PP's will have a hard time continuing much of the time when you raise on dry flops like those.

I think the concerns you raise are valid and hurt our EV some, but having position more than overcomes them.

[Victor]

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77 against a 41/13/.7. He checkraises Q-high flop. Don't like your turn raise after you pick up the gutshot.

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are you calling down tho. folding such a pair seems super weak.


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You raise QTo. Laggy BB 3-bets. You call and flop comes K-high. You call with no pair, no draw?? Fold that.

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this guy is notorious for giving free cards and i know that his range is quite large preflop especially against me. this mitigates the call somewhat but i agree its better fold.

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QTo in BB against a 71/35 button steal raise. Why 3-bet? Call and flop a hand cause you will need one.


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dudes range is huge and i think he is folding most flops esp if an ace hits.

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Blind defense with 33 against 30/24 CO raise. Flop KTx with two clubs. I think you give up too much by check/folding here. I would probably check/call flop and check/call any turn besides a J, Q, or A then check/fold river.


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i almost never use this line and when i do i usually feel dity. i just hate putting in 1.5 bets just to fold.

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NICE turn screwplay with AQs. I should do that more

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thanks to nlsoldier!

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QJo flop ATx, turn something. You check behind on turn then bluff river. Don't like the bluff.

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but thats the only way i can win /images/graemlins/blush.gif. he could have kj, kq or qj here tho. i like to think positive.

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30/24 raises from CO. You call in SB with A9o? 3-bet or fold. 68/33 raises from MP.

You call in SB with A8s. I know BB is pretty tight but I still like a 3-bet better.


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i often like to flat call with my medium aces. i know i am ahead of their range but now i can milk them when an ace flops. many players steal with 50% and will fold on the flop esp when an ace flops is and they are facing aggression. however, they will continue to lead if you take a passive approach. this is why i often 3bet my kq, kj, k10, qj and just call my aces.

am i way off here?

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QJo flop Q-high. You checkraise flop, bet turn. River comes an Ace and you miss a value bet.


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yea this is weak and pisses me off looking at it.

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A3o, you attempt to steal from button and get 3-bet by SB. You call a drawy flop, then raise a 4-straight turn, then bluff river and fold to c/r. HATE the river bet. There's nothig he's calling the turn with that won't call the river.

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gawd i made a meal of this one.


well, thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. i definitely appreciate it.

[Victor]

thanks for posting maxx!

i agree with most of your points.

i think the ak hand vs tiger is an easy value bet on the river as he is calling with any ace.

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Why call TurboCarls's SB stealraise w/86o (he is 18/7 pf)

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i only had 50 hands on him and 86 with position is good enough for me. also, i dont want him stealing my blind often at a 4handed table.



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The AQs unimproved/undrawing oop turn cr was an interesting play vs the 30/24. I don't really know what to make of it, it just caught my eye.


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mfckerr was taking shots at me all night. there is a class of players whose only requisite for betting is that its checked to them. its fun to punish those fools.

[Danenania]

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77 against a 41/13/.7. He checkraises Q-high flop. Don't like your turn raise after you pick up the gutshot.

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are you calling down tho. folding such a pair seems super weak.

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Yeah I'm calling down. If not I would have folded to the flop raise. I just don't like raising the turn because of the extra outs you picked up and the danger of being 3-bet when he has something serious (not so rare given his passivity). Otherwise I'd think it's fine.


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QTo in BB against a 71/35 button steal raise. Why 3-bet? Call and flop a hand cause you will need one.

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dudes range is huge and i think he is folding most flops esp if an ace hits.

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If this is true then I like it better. I've just found that these monstrous vpip types are usually ones to always call flops and often make plays at you with or without hands. Of course I agree that his hand range is huge. I just don't think you'll be winning very often unimproved..but that is sort of a judgment call.


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Blind defense with 33 against 30/24 CO raise. Flop KTx with two clubs. I think you give up too much by check/folding here. I would probably check/call flop and check/call any turn besides a J, Q, or A then check/fold river.

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i almost never use this line and when i do i usually feel dity. i just hate putting in 1.5 bets just to fold.

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It's thin and yeah it doesn't feel good to put the money in then fold, but it's really a good solid line since players with some postflop sense nearly always check behind their worse hands on the river. If you want to, do a Pstove with his 3-betting range and check your equity on that flop. You'll be surprised how good it is. And then it actually improves on a blank turn. Btw, I lifted this line straight from some of Nate's old posts. If you do some searhing you might be able to find some indepth discussion of its merits.


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30/24 raises from CO. You call in SB with A9o? 3-bet or fold. 68/33 raises from MP.

You call in SB with A8s. I know BB is pretty tight but I still like a 3-bet better.



[/ QUOTE ] i often like to flat call with my medium aces. i know i am ahead of their range but now i can milk them when an ace flops. many players steal with 50% and will fold on the flop esp when an ace flops is and they are facing aggression. however, they will continue to lead if you take a passive approach. this is why i often 3bet my kq, kj, k10, qj and just call my aces.

am i way off here?

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I don't think you're way off, but I think you're forgetting how important it is to get HU with a hand like this. Your arguments are good ones for not 3-betting PF with medium Aces when defending BB HU, but from SB chances of winning UI go WAY down when you let that third player sneak in. And even if he's tight his range is going to be much widened here if he's paying attention. I know mine would be with a horrible raiser and you showing weakness by just calling.

[DrSavage]

Turn the card animation off :/ Especially for a video - it doesn't capture well.

[setjes]

Is it standard for u to raise with A4o on the button after the CO has limped?