Rosa Parks takes the bus

[Cyrus]

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/law/witt/raw_images/lect28/13_rosa_parks.jpg

First "celebrity death" I have really stopped and thought about in a long time.

What a fantasticly simple person.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I had seriously never heard about her before today /images/graemlins/blush.gif, weird if she is so famous in the US.

umm, fantastically.

and yeah, she's a pretty big deal in america, but I guess I could see not knowing about her... I havent memorized heroes of the irish civil war.

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
umm, fantastically.

and yeah, she's a pretty big deal in america, but I guess I could see not knowing about her... I havent memorized heroes of the irish civil war.

[/ QUOTE ]

She is well known because she was used to integrate the buses, but she didn't do much of anything.

It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott.

That puts her in the same category as Norma McCorvey (the Roe in Row v. Wade) who was used to advance the anti-abortion issue.

come on, you cant save this comment for some other time?

the woman died for gods sake.

yes, Im sure that "the coloreds" gaining equality is in the same arena as abortion legality in your mind, but for the sake of the rest of us, stfu

[Beer and Pizza]

There is nothing negative about my comment. I was just stating the facts. She was used as a pawn for a movement. Nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't mind being famous for being a "test case" for something without having to do anything. Nice gig if you can get it.

Our friends across the pond may not understand her role if we don't tell them. They will understand what being famous without doing anything means... since they have Charles, William, Harry..... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AngryCola]

:yawn:

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
:yawn:

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. She was 92 years old. Was this somehow unexpected?

[mackthefork]

I honestly think Arnfinn is in a small minority.

Mack

[Frozen]

What I'm about to say is meant in absolutely no disrespect for Rosa Parks. In fact, this is the first celebrity death in over a decade to cause my eyes to water at all.

There is a lesson here for all of us. Not just about the woman's cause, but specifically about her methods. Rosa Parks did not undertake a 15-year bureaucratic petitioning process to bring change (nor is it in her very nature to even consider doing such a thing)... she just sat down.

How are you enjoying the U.S. government's 'War on Drugs' ? Did you know that every year, more Americans are arrested for simple marijuana possession than the total number busted for violent crimes?

( http://www.drugwarfacts.org/crime.htm )

If you (in general) weren't such a bunch of God Damned Pussies, you'd protest prohibition the Rosa Parks way: Just use your drug of choice in the open. This is nothing to be ashamed of at all. That's the only way things will ever change.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57141

Awesome, because everyone knows that skyrocketing use of heroin and meth among teens is good for families.

Friggin jackass.

[Frozen]

"Awesome, because everyone knows that skyrocketing use of heroin and meth among teens is good for families.
Friggin jackass. "

Now explain to me exactly how prohibition has been in any way successful in keeping drugs out of the hands of users.
Why do the E.U. and Schweiz (With their lax drug prohibition policies) have far lower addiction rates than the U.S.?

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/internat.htm

That's all I should say here. This thread is devoted to a true American heroine. I only intended to make one post here, and only on the effectiveness of her method of protest, and its versatility in fighting injustice everywhere.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[Rosa Parks] was used as a pawn for a movement. Nothing wrong with that. [Sha was] a "test case" for something without having to do anything.
<font color="white"> . </font>
Nice gig if you can get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pawn is meant to refer to someone who is unwillingly used by a higher power. Rosa Parks demonstrated by her stance throughout her life that she was nothing of the sort. She may not have been a rich girl and she did not enjoy the collective social power a white girl had by default, but she made the best she could out of the hand that life had dealt her.

Only someone who does not know her life story or is an unreconstructed racist would claim otherwise.

Anyway... I'm sure that in your particular mind frame, it is grating that all 'em uppity negros got ahead of themselves, caused all sorts of trouble down South and finally won their daymn Civil Rahts Act. I'm also sure that pictures (in magazines or, probably, mental) of black males fondling and doing other stuff to tender, succulent white female flesh gets you all upset.

That is what's nice.

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
A pawn is meant to refer to someone who is unwillingly used by a higher power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being used unwillingly is not always what is meant. I used the term in the neutral sense (as in the Chess piece) definition = a person used by another to gain an end (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&amp;dsid=502&amp;deid=1140092507&amp;gwp=8&amp;cu rtab=502_1&amp;linktext=Meaning%20%232)

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway... I'm sure that in your particular mind frame, it is grating that all 'em uppity negros got ahead of themselves, caused all sorts of trouble down South and finally won their daymn Civil Rahts Act. I'm also sure that pictures (in magazines or, probably, mental) of black males fondling and doing other stuff to tender, succulent white female flesh gets you all upset.

[/ QUOTE ]

All this racist crap is in your mind. Everything I said in this thread is just describing her role in the movement as a basically passive person used by others. If you have a problem with her passive role as a pawn, that is your concern.

There is nothing wrong with being a pawn, there is something wrong with you trying to suggest that a pawn is somehow something more than a pawn.

Norma McCorvey was also a pawn, does that bother you too?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway... I'm sure that in your particular mind frame, it is grating that all 'em uppity negros got ahead of themselves, caused all sorts of trouble down South and finally won their daymn Civil Rahts Act. I'm also sure that pictures (in magazines or, probably, mental) of black males fondling and doing other stuff to tender, succulent white female flesh gets you all upset.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



All this racist crap is in your mind. Everything I said in this thread is just describing her role in the movement as a basically passive person used by others. If you have a problem with her passive role as a pawn, that is your concern.

There is nothing wrong with being a pawn, there is something wrong with you trying to suggest that a pawn is somehow something more than a pawn.

Norma McCorvey was also a pawn, does that bother you too?



[/ QUOTE ]

No, he hit the nail right and squarely on the head.

Mack

[ACPlayer]

Yep. Cyrus' post was on the money.

She said she would not move, she did not move. Whether at the suggestion of others or not - that is immaterial. It required guts, real guts. It is often the quiet unassuming types who get real things done.

The country is better off as a result.

Thanks!!!!

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[Rosa Parks'] role in the movement [was] as a basically passive person used by others.

[/ QUOTE ]Rosa Parks would not sit at the back of the bus. That's all she did. A big choice for her, a giant step for America. Happened in a small Mississippi bus, some fifty years ago.

She did not have a "grand plan", she did not receive any orders or instructions, she had not alerted the TV cameras and she was not in touch with any lawyer. A pawn is someone who acts completely differently.

Subsequently, of course, Rosa Parks' case was taken up by activists. Her initial act of courage and her subsequent willingness to take the matter further contributed in a big way to the civil rights movement. She was not "taken advantage of"; rather, her case took a life of its own and became a rallying cause.

The civil rights movement was also fuelled by the vicious torture and killing in Mississippi of Emmett Till (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till), a black teenager who committed the mortal sin of "whistling at a white woman". By your logic, Emmett Till was also a pawn...

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with being a pawn, there is something wrong with you trying to suggest that a pawn is somehow something more than a pawn.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is nothing right with being a racist.

When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", as you did, then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[Beer and Pizza]

The old attack the messenger routine, and three of you have fallen for it. Why the need to make her into something she is not?

Better to honor the real person than a counterfeited image. Why be afraid to see her as see really was?

And why the racial attacks when someone points out the truth?

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing right with being a racist.


[/ QUOTE ]

Then you should stop acting that way.

[ QUOTE ]
When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", as you did, then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

or d) has actually read her biography and is relating it to you.

Go read it for yourself.

[ACPlayer]

I dont think we are the ones making her into something she is not.

I dont think Cyrus is making you into something you are not.

Your life, your views.

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think we are the ones making her into something she is not.

I dont think Cyrus is making you into something you are not.

Your life, your views.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read her biography? (not just some media summary)

Politicians and people in social movements are all about creating spin about what they are doing. Have you not learned this yet?

My view is to view people as they really are, not as their image-makers make them appear.

[ACPlayer]

Like I said in a previous post.

She said she would. She did. It took guts and courage. It helped change America.

Combine that with other "pawns" and we got the civil rights movement.

A pawn - I think not.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
My view is to view people as they really are, not as their image-makers make them appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you forget the halo emoticon?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think we are the ones making her into something she is not.

I dont think Cyrus is making you into something you are not.

Your life, your views.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read her biography? (not just some media summary)

Politicians and people in social movements are all about creating spin about what they are doing. Have you not learned this yet?

My view is to view people as they really are, not as their image-makers make them appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are way off, man. I don't know much about this woman, but I respect everyone that fights to stop injustice. I think they are brave. When it in addition is people who understands how to appeal to human compassion by forcing the oppressor to show his real evil face (as she did), it makes them brave and intelligent. The world has way too few of such people (Amnesty report for 2004 is not happy reading) and to honor those who stand out to make a difference (like her) is at least a minor encouragement to her and others, which I think you could offer.

[Beer and Pizza]

There is nothing wrong with being a pawn. Many a game of chess is won by a pawn and pawns have been important to many a political or social movement. I'd be a pawn for a good cause too.

The best way to honor someone who has been a pawn for a cause is to respect them for being that pawn for a cause.

To remember a false image of a person shows no respect for her at all. So why do some here feel they must do so?

It seems pretty clear to me that you're denigrating this woman. And when you say "she really didn't do much of anything" that pretty much tells me you didn't really read any decent biography. Just readying the blurbs on various websites about her life tells me she did a lot in her life to help civil rights.

She also recieved the highest possible civilian award (Congressional Gold Medal, I believe it's called) in 1999, a tribute to what she did with her life.

Like I said, it seems like you've got an some weird anti-Rosa Parks agenda that actually does, honestly, make you come off a bit racist. That being said, tell me what biography you read that lead you to believe that she didn't do much.

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems pretty clear to me that you're denigrating this woman.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems pretty clear to me that you are putting thoughts into people's heads. Read my actual words literally and you might just realize that you are wrong.


[ QUOTE ]
She also recieved the highest possible civilian award (Congressional Gold Medal, I believe it's called) in 1999, a tribute to what she did with her life.


[/ QUOTE ]

Awards mean nothing, they reflect the feelings of the people who decide who wins the award. You make a big mistake if you assume objectivity in awards.

[ QUOTE ]
it seems like you've got an some weird anti-Rosa Parks agenda

[/ QUOTE ]

Amazing. I've been talking about honoring her as she really was instead of some false spin image, and you think that is anti-Rosa Parks. The people who worship the phony spin are the ones disrespecting her. I honor the real person, it appears I am the only one who is honoring the real person. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing. I've been talking about honoring her as she really was instead of some false spin image, and you think that is anti-Rosa Parks. The people who worship the phony spin are the ones disrespecting her. I honor the real person, it appears I am the only one who is honoring the real person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, it's obvious:
1. You disagree with them about a factual issue.
2. The subject of the fact is black.

Racism if I ever saw it...

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]


Come on, it's obvious:
1. You disagree with them about a factual issue.
2. The subject of the fact is black.

Racism if I ever saw it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to call them racist, even though, as you point out, they have a warped view of a factual issue involving a black subject. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Frogic]

I'm not sure if you're purposely being obtuse or not. I haven't read any of these biographies so I don't know if she did or did not make the decision on her own. This fact is immaterial. You're purposely using a term that has negative connotations to describe someone viewed by many as a hero.

You could have easily said 'Rosa Parks was asked to make a demonstration' but instead you used the word 'pawn' which I have never heard ANYONE use positively. People need to realize that words have more meaning then just a dictionary interpretation, and your post feels like instead of trying to impart information it was intended to start a flame war(which of course has happend, good job).

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
it was intended to start a flame war(which of course has happend, good job).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised so many fell for it.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm, fantastically.

and yeah, she's a pretty big deal in america, but I guess I could see not knowing about her... I havent memorized heroes of the irish civil war.

[/ QUOTE ]

She is well known because she was used to integrate the buses, but she didn't do much of anything.

It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott.

That puts her in the same category as Norma McCorvey (the Roe in Row v. Wade) who was used to advance the anti-abortion issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually contradicts all accounts I had read about what happened that day. Where are you getting your info from?

[Triumph36]

Thomas Jefferson just wrote some words on a piece of paper.

In Boston, they just threw some tea into the bay.

Einstein figured out a few math equations.

Jackie Robinson played a game for a living.

Big deal!

It's very easy to denigrate the acts of others and make them seem insignificant. The significance comes from us - we as people and a society deem things significant. Yes, her act was a small act - but it symbolized larger acts, and galvanized a national movement.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
It's very easy to denigrate the acts of others and make them seem insignificant.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously wonder about the reading comprehension of some posters here when stuff like this is said in response to what he posted.

[Cyrus]

Why do you continue down that stupid line of a stupid argument?

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with being a pawn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pawn is someone who is played. The woman was not played. When Rosa Parks stepped on that bus, there was no "grand plan" behind or "instructions" about what to do. She acted on her own.

True, her case was subsequently picked up by the civil rights movement. Does this make her a "pawn"? Of course not.

As was tre case of Emmett Till. I already asked you if Emmett Till was also a "pawn". You have been wise to avoid answering that.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post ... was intended to start a flame war

[/ QUOTE ]
You're reaching. Beer and Pizza simply let off a racist and bigoted comment.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously wonder about the reading comprehension of some posters here when stuff like this is said in response to what he posted.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nonsense.

Beer and Pizza wrote that Rosa Parks' role was a "passive" one, that she got played like a "pawn", etc. He tried to belittle the woman and her brave act.

There is a racist pattern to this, but perhaps your reading comprehension is off.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a racist pattern to this, but perhaps your reading comprehension is off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've read what Beer and Pizza said and am pretty confident that I understand what he meant. There was nothing racist about it. To say otherwise is dishonest.

[Triumph36]

Beer and Pizza wrote:

"She is well known because she was used to integrate the buses, but she didn't do much of anything.

It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott.

That puts her in the same category as Norma McCorvey (the Roe in Row v. Wade) who was used to advance the anti-abortion issue."

'didn't do much of anything'
'the lucky person'

no, you're right, none of that is an attempt to denigrate. Continue insulting others' reading comprehension.

[BCPVP]

I think it's pretty clear that Beer and Pizza was attempting to look at the real Rosa Parks and not a built up image of her. That is not denigrating. That's trying to be objective.

Cedric the Entertainer said basically the same thing that Beer and Pizza has. Is he a racist too?

[Triumph36]

Where did I claim he was being racist? I said no such thing - I just said he was being needlessly insulting.

As for Cedric the Entertainer, fine - comedy is supposed to take the significance out of things. Again, I never accused anyone of racism, just of missing the point. You know, she died today.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
Beer and Pizza simply let off a racist and bigoted comment.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's really amazing how easily and automatically accusations like that roll off some people's tongues, like a knee-jerk reflex.

Are you seriously suggesting that saying something negative about a particular person who happens to be black constitutes racism!? If that's not it, then please tell me where the racism is in what B+P said in this thread.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did I claim he was being racist?

[/ QUOTE ]
Others here have.

[ QUOTE ]
I just said he was being needlessly insulting.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he was being insulting at all.

[ QUOTE ]
As for Cedric the Entertainer, fine - comedy is supposed to take the significance out of things.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that particular quote from Barbershop prompted Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to try and boycott the movie, so I think it was meant to be taken seriously.

[ QUOTE ]
You know, she died today.

[/ QUOTE ]
Technically she died yesterday.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty clear that Beer and Pizza was attempting to look at the real Rosa Parks and not a built up image of her.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think his intentions are as clear as you seem to believe.

But I digress.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, she died today.

[/ QUOTE ]
Technically she died yesterday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

In the context of this discussion, it doesn't really matter if it was late last night or this morning. Arguing technicalities is silly and juvenile.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty clear that Beer and Pizza was attempting to look at the real Rosa Parks and not a built up image of her. That is not denigrating. That's trying to be objective.


[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is, why Beer and Pizza's view about Rosa Park is the real Rosa Park and why a different view is a built up image of her?

If you or him are so sure that the following quote happened

"It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott."

Why then just present the study where is proved? Who did the study or research? The methodology?

He made that claim, the burden of the proof is on him, frankly, Don't you think this way is easier to prove your claim instead of just keep repeating it?

I give you both the benefit of the doubt, but if you don't have a serious argument about that claim, then what would be the purpose of doing it?

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with being a pawn. Many a game of chess is won by a pawn and pawns have been important to many a political or social movement. I'd be a pawn for a good cause too.

The best way to honor someone who has been a pawn for a cause is to respect them for being that pawn for a cause.

To remember a false image of a person shows no respect for her at all. So why do some here feel they must do so?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are you getting this history from? Can you name the book? It contradicts everything I know about the story.

You are making some fantastic claims, it would be nice to see some support so you could educate us all.

[twowords]

[ QUOTE ]
She is well known because she was used to integrate the buses, but she didn't do much of anything.

It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott.

That puts her in the same category as Norma McCorvey (the Roe in Row v. Wade) who was used to advance the anti-abortion issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was chosen to be the symbol of the movement out of a small number of brave and defiant blacks who did similar acts.

The reason you are being called out is for: "she didnt do much of anything" and "she was just lucky," both comments pretty stupid and ignorarnt.

Also, if you have no source to prove the event itself was staged, then why make the allegation? Did they enlist some white people or just cross their fingers that the white section would fill up? This interview (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/par0int-2) shows no sign of staging.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty clear that Beer and Pizza was attempting to look at the real Rosa Parks and not a built up image of her. That is not denigrating. That's trying to be objective.

Cedric the Entertainer said basically the same thing that Beer and Pizza has. Is he a racist too?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Since Ced is black and he spoke about other black people, he must be right.

Attempting to look at the real rosa parks? B&amp;P made some as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims in his post that contradict conventional wisdom about what went down that day. If he at least offered some references to his version of how things went down, we could have a reasonable argument.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, why Beer and Pizza's view about Rosa Park is the real Rosa Park and why a different view is a built up image of her?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say this is a "problem". I'd say it's normal debate. He holds one opinion, others hold a different opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
If you or him are so sure that the following quote happened

"It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott."

Why then just present the study where is proved? Who did the study or research? The methodology?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if Beer's side is correct. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Plus this isn't exactly something there'd be a "study" on. It's either true or untrue.

[ QUOTE ]
He made that claim, the burden of the proof is on him, frankly, Don't you think this way is easier to prove your claim instead of just keep repeating it?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right. The burden is on him to show this. He did point to Rosa Parks biography, previously. I haven't read her biography so I can't comment on the correctness of Beer's statement.

Regardless, some in this thread have acted very immaturely, imo, by calling Beer a racist. That's a very strong term to be throwing around and to do so because you don't understand the other person's point is very inappropriate, wouldn't you agree?

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
some in this thread have acted very immaturely, imo, by calling Beer a racist

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there were a number of choices offered for B &amp; P's dismissive posts regarding Ms Parks, only one of them was that he was a racist.

He is welcome to let us know which of the others he thinks is more accurate (once he understands why he is wrong ofcourse).

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You are right. Since Ced is black and he spoke about other black people, he must be right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I say he was right? Plus it was in the movie Barbershop, but obviously the director (who was also black) had him say it in a serious manner. It's not whether he's right or wrong. It's that other people (black people nonetheless) have similar feelings as Beer and it is silly to call him racist for those feelings.

[ QUOTE ]
B&amp;P made some as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims in his post that contradict conventional wisdom about what went down that day. If he at least offered some references to his version of how things went down, we could have a reasonable argument.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to defend the "planned in advance" part because I don't know if it's true or not. But instead of personally attacking someone by calling them a racist, perhaps we could try being civil about it? You can't have a reasonable argument if you call the other person a racist before they try to back up their claim, now can you?

My contribution to this thread has been to 1) get people to stop with the racist nonsense and 2) introduce the fact this the idea that Rosa Parks has been built up into a symbol is shared by others, some who happen to also be black.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are right. Since Ced is black and he spoke about other black people, he must be right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I say he was right? Plus it was in the movie Barbershop, but obviously the director (who was also black) had him say it in a serious manner. It's not whether he's right or wrong. It's that other people (black people nonetheless) have similar feelings as Beer and it is silly to call him racist for those feelings.

[ QUOTE ]
B&amp;P made some as-of-yet unsubstantiated claims in his post that contradict conventional wisdom about what went down that day. If he at least offered some references to his version of how things went down, we could have a reasonable argument.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to defend the "planned in advance" part because I don't know if it's true or not. But instead of personally attacking someone by calling them a racist, perhaps we could try being civil about it? You can't have a reasonable argument if you call the other person a racist before they try to back up their claim, now can you?

My contribution to this thread has been to 1) get people to stop with the racist nonsense and 2) introduce the fact this the idea that Rosa Parks has been built up into a symbol is shared by others, some who happen to also be black.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the discussion can be more civil, but B &amp; P made some rather inflammatory remarks, and much of the inflammation (so to speak) could have been avoided if he attempted to substantiate his claims (which, to this point I might add, he hasn't).
I don't like throwing around the term racist either, but his choice of words was certainly curious if he was trying to initiate a civil discussion about Rosa Parks.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Awesome, because everyone knows that skyrocketing use of heroin and meth among teens is good for families.

Friggin jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are the jackass. You obviously don't know a damn thing about prohibition or drug use.

natedogg

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway... I'm sure that in your particular mind frame, it is grating that all 'em uppity negros got ahead of themselves, caused all sorts of trouble down South and finally won their daymn Civil Rahts Act. I'm also sure that pictures (in magazines or, probably, mental) of black males fondling and doing other stuff to tender, succulent white female flesh gets you all upset.

That is what's nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a totally juvenile and ignorant set of statements.

natedogg

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
If you (in general) weren't such a bunch of God Damned Pussies, you'd protest prohibition the Rosa Parks way: Just use your drug of choice in the open. This is nothing to be ashamed of at all. That's the only way things will ever change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't use drugs.

And you're wrong. The only way anything will ever change is if all these freakin morons stop voting for drug warriors. That's the only way. Period.

natedogg

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
What a totally juvenile and ignorant set of statements.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's called the needle.

And it hit the spot.

[Cyrus]

Beer and Pizza posted (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3768732&amp;page=114&amp;view =expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) the following:

[ QUOTE ]
[Rosa Parks] was used to integrate the buses, but she didn't do much of anything. She was a pawn for a movement. It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since this is not at all what we know from History, I suggested this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3769140&amp;page=114&amp;view =expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) to Beer an Pizza:

[ QUOTE ]
Only someone who does not know [Rosa Parks'] life story or is an unreconstructed racist would claim [that].

[/ QUOTE ]

I also gave him another opening here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3769325&amp;page=114&amp;view =expanded&amp;sb=6&amp;o=&amp;vc=1):

[ QUOTE ]
When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", as you did, then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see, I gave Beer and Pizza some serious outs! He would not necessarily be a racist for posting such negative and dismissive comments about the struggle of black people in America for civil rights; he could very well have been ignorant of Parks' life story and the details of the bus incident (nothing wrong with that at all). Or he could not know the exact meaning of the wrods he was using. But Beer and Pizza insisted that, not only did he know her life story well, he implied that he knew what happened better than the official record!

So, I think it is fair to say that when Beer and Pizza cannot substantiate his smears, despite being repeatedly invited to, and when one takes into consideration the generally disparaging view taken by Beer and Pizza as regards the civil rights movement in America, then one can start thinking that Beer and Pizza's comments might have been somewhat ...prejudiced.

And this is where I thought I saw a white robe flashing by. Perhaps it was a reflexion on the car window.

[El Barto]

I also heard that there was a plan in place to challenge the Bus seating law and that Parks was among those asked to help. The timing would of course depend on when the opportunity presented itself.


At least two women were arrested before Parks was. At least one, Mary Louise Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Louise_Smith), was rejected as the test case because of rumors of her father's alcoholism. This suggests that the Parks arrest was not completely random and unexpected, and that there was in fact a "plan." (note, this was a cursory search - I'm sure one could find much more)

Hetron, this was easy to find information, you shouldn't go around staining another poster's reputation for not providing links for every claim they make, when you could do it yourself. You posted about 4 times complaining of no links to evidence, without lifting a finger yourself to find any.
[b]
The political correctness of this board disgusts me. Calling someone a racist without legitimate basis is the politics of personal destruction. Shame on many of you, you did not live up to your basic humanity today.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a racist pattern to this, but perhaps your reading comprehension is off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've read what Beer and Pizza said and am pretty confident that I understand what he meant. There was nothing racist about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read again what I wrote - then read again what you wrote. I've quoted everything above, for your comfort.

Your reading comperehension is still off.

Should I start underlining key words ?

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
He would not necessarily be a racist for posting such negative and dismissive comments about the struggle of black people in America for civil rights; he could very well have been ignorant of Parks' life story and the details of the bus incident (nothing wrong with that at all).

[/ QUOTE ]
So in your world, anyone who has similar feelings either 1) doesn't know about Rosa Parks's history or 2) is a racist. Not exactly the most civil way to debate, Cyrus. "You're either ignorant or a racist if you believe that" is what this amounts to. I've already given an example of a black actor (and the black director who wrote the script) saying just about the same thing that Beer said. Are they ignorant/racist too?

[ QUOTE ]
then one can start thinking that Beer and Pizza's comments might have been somewhat ...prejudiced.

[/ QUOTE ]
So how do we get from "might have been somewhat" to "he's a racist"? I see the great Cyrus is definitely not above namecalling, even if the person only "might have been somewhat prejudiced". Very classy of you.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What a totally juvenile and ignorant set of statements.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's called the needle.

And it hit the spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh hunh. Right. Who exactly are you trying to needle with your inane characterizations?

Oh yeah, you really got to those old Jim Crow racists that can't stand to see any negroes get uppity. Good job flushing them out.

You know what your comments sound like? They sound like a foreigner trying to caricaturize something he's not actually familiar with but read about it on the internets.

oh wait, that's you.

natedogg

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I also heard that there was a plan in place to challenge the Bus seating law and that Parks was among those asked to help.

[/ QUOTE ] You heard, huh?

And, like Beer and Pizza (or Wogga before him) you choose to believe what you heard, which happens to be disparaging to the civil rights struggle of American blacks, rather than the plain and simple (and official) version of events?

Here is the story, chum: There was already unrest among the right-thinking people of America, of every race, about the gross injustices in society, such as the racist treatment of non-whites (or, rather, non-WASPs; Catholics and Jews were not viewed too kindly at the time, either).

The unrest culminated slowly into a movement, which had to face, among other obstacles, the premise of a raging Cold War, and the paranoia fuelled by it (e.g. FBI's suspcicions that all those agitating for change were communist sympathizers, at the very least).

The movement did not have any "grand plans" such as hitting segregation in buses by staging an incident. But the movement DID take advantage of incidents as they happened DAILY all over America! A practice with which there is absolutely nothing wrong or dishonest. No need to "stage" a lynching, see. Lynchings be hapenning on their own!

And, yes, it is true that before Rosa Parks, here have been other cases where blacks refused to go to the back of the bus. And one of them, at least, from historical evidence, seems to have been rejected by the movement (e.g. the protagonist being a teenager pregnant girl) on account of the crap* that would be sure to fall from the reactionary Right! AGAIN, there is nothing wrong with such selectivity, nor does it show that "everything was planned" -- or that Rosa Parks was "used", or that the other girl too was "a pawn". Stupid people, or prejudiced people, are prone to throwing words around without thinking: Beer and Pizza called Rosa Parks a "pawn", implying premeditation and conspiracy.

Around the same time, that Rosa Parks refused to get up, Emmett Till (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till) was tortured and murdered by white racists; his death was also taken up and "used" by the civil rights movement. Was Emmett Till a pawn too?



I stand behind what I wrote :

[ QUOTE ]
When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

____________

*Not much has changed since the 1950s on that account, by the way. People who dislike the civil rights movement's achievements still smear Martin Luther King, for example, on account of his human failings as a husband or a father. According to their small minds, MLK "cheated on his wife, therefore we cannot trust nothing he said!" Just google up some racist websites and see for yourselves...

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly the most civil way to debate, Cyrus. "You're either ignorant or a racist if you believe that" is what this amounts to. I've already given an example of a black actor (and the black director who wrote the script) saying just about the same thing that Beer said. Are they ignorant/racist too?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are ignorant.

Please do not mix the terms "ignorant/racist". I was specific that it's Either/Or.

(To elaborate a bit, I believe that there was much flippancy about the Barbershop dialogue. Myself, I enjoy any movie that can entertain, even if the story or the dialogue are as left-field as they come. But I would not cite what an actor said in a movie as "historical evidence"!)

[ QUOTE ]
So how do we get from "might have been somewhat [prejudiced]" to "he's a racist"?

[/ QUOTE ]
By drawing a straight line.

Length of line varies according to the individual.

By the way, it is you who is being too quick with characterizations! Do yourself a favor and read what was written in this thread again. You will see things mkre clearly. I hope.

Once more, here is my claim, verbatim: [ QUOTE ]
When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to substitute (c) with "ignorant of History".

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[sarcastically:] Oh yeah, you really got to those old Jim Crow racists that can't stand to see any negroes get uppity. Good job flushing them out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting.

You truly think that there are no "Jim Crow racists" on this board ?

Why would you say this? Please elaborate.

(Even going by sheer numbers alone, and knowing that the current 2+2 membership is close to 50,000 accounts, your comment strikes me as, shall we say, a little off the mark!)

[El Barto]

I'm more interested in you, Cyrus, than in Rosa Parks.

[ QUOTE ]
like Beer and Pizza (or Wogga before him)

[/ QUOTE ]

When you use phrases like these, you are showing your tendency to use the politics of personal destruction (lumping current posters with a poster banned for racial comments to smear the current posters) You should be ashamed.

Don't deliberately misinterpret what someone has said to fit into your black and white view of the world. Consider the fact that people can have disagreements about facts without being racists.

As I said before:
"The political correctness of this board disgusts me. Calling someone a racist without legitimate basis is the politics of personal destruction. Shame on many of you, you did not live up to your basic humanity today."

I hope you can look into your heart and see how your fast and loose smearing of posters you disagree with is unbecoming of a human being. Present your case strongly without the personal attacks, Cyrus. Did Rosa Parks fight against injustice in the world so that you could use her to engage in character assassination?

Do the right thing and apologize to those you have smeared unfairly, and go forth and do it no more.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
My contribution to this thread has been to 1) get people to stop with the racist nonsense and 2) introduce the fact this the idea that Rosa Parks has been built up into a symbol is shared by others, some who happen to also be black

[/ QUOTE ]

First thanks for the contribution. Wait ... not really.

The issue of painting a civil rights worker (or any worker with a cause) by using words designed to belittle (such as pawn) is essentially an attack on the cause. For, in any cause, almost all people are playing a role in achieving that cause - usually the role is small and is usually exploited by those carrying the flag for the cause. For some the role is accidental, for some deliberate, it makes little difference if you believe that the cause needs to be dealt with. If however, you think that the cause was stupid then one comes up with these terms to distract and belittle.

Rosa Parks was not a symbol or a pawn, she was a civil rights activists, who knowingly took a risk. A risk that later in life cost her monetarily. She took the risk because she was tired ...

[ QUOTE ]
People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn't true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rosa Parks could well have met the fate of Emmitt Till (prior to this incident) or that of Goodman, Chaney and Schwerber (spelling?). She knew it when she took the risk, because she was tired.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
So in your world, anyone who has similar feelings either 1) doesn't know about Rosa Parks's history or 2) is a racist. Not exactly the most civil way to debate, Cyrus. "You're either ignorant or a racist if you believe that" is what this amounts to. I've already given an example of a black actor (and the black director who wrote the script) saying just about the same thing that Beer said. Are they ignorant/racist too?


[/ QUOTE ]

No need to take offence to that, it's the same word game Beer is playing. There are plenty of ways to say it nicely, but why bother when you can say what you mean.

It's fairly obvious what Beer meant and it's wholly unpleasant, it's nice that some with similar opinions will defend him though, so he can say anything he likes and then pretend he meant something different.

Mack

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
it's nice that some with similar opinions will defend him though, so he can say anything he likes and then pretend he meant something different.


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds pretty illogical to me. In my observations of the world I've noticed that as one gets more support one tends to get bolder and more forthright in one's statements. Backpedaling and retracting happens when you are outnumbered and squeezed into a corner.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's nice that some with similar opinions will defend him though, so he can say anything he likes and then pretend he meant something different.


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds pretty illogical to me. In my observations of the world I've noticed that as one gets more support one tends to get bolder and more forthright in one's statements. Backpedaling and retracting happens when you are outnumbered and squeezed into a corner.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is bold and he isn't back-peddling, he's pretending to have meant something else, when his meaning was obvious. It's the same if I say you are a fool, then pretend I meant jester. Pawn and fool are both words with many meanings, given context though the true meaning becomes evident.

Mack

[Richard Tanner]

And picking one thing out of four statments (the most worthless argument as well) and only "debunking" it shows weakness.

Cody

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I also heard that there was a plan in place to challenge the Bus seating law and that Parks was among those asked to help. The timing would of course depend on when the opportunity presented itself.


At least two women were arrested before Parks was. At least one, Mary Louise Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Louise_Smith), was rejected as the test case because of rumors of her father's alcoholism. This suggests that the Parks arrest was not completely random and unexpected, and that there was in fact a "plan." (note, this was a cursory search - I'm sure one could find much more)

Hetron, this was easy to find information, you shouldn't go around staining another poster's reputation for not providing links for every claim they make, when you could do it yourself. You posted about 4 times complaining of no links to evidence, without lifting a finger yourself to find any.
[b]
The political correctness of this board disgusts me. Calling someone a racist without legitimate basis is the politics of personal destruction. Shame on many of you, you did not live up to your basic humanity today.

[/ QUOTE ]


Here is B&amp;P's quote:
[ QUOTE ]


It was arranged ahead of time that she would refuse to leave her seat, and they knew no harm would come to her. She was just the lucky person picked to be the "symbol" of the bus boycott.

That puts her in the same category as Norma McCorvey (the Roe in Row v. Wade) who was used to advance the anti-abortion issue.


[/ QUOTE ]


I never called anyone a racist. I am perfectly capable of looking things up on the internet as well. Our man B&amp; P stated he got his information from a biography on Rosa Parks, NOT the internet. All the info I have seen on the internet merely SPECULATES that Rosa Parks may have planned this action in advance. There is no PROOF that what she did was at behest of NAACP or other civil rights groups (none that I can find). Furthermore, B &amp; P states that "they knew no harm would come to her". Huh? Where is there proof of this? That the civil rights movement GUARANTEED her that no harm would come to her as a result of her actions? Rosa Parks left Alabama precisely because she lost her job and because she was subjected to constant death threats. She SACRIFICED her livelihood as a seamstress in Montgomery for a greater cause. If that isn't "doing something", I am afraid I don't know what is.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
he's pretending to have meant something else, when his meaning was obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but why does he do it? You seem to be saying it's because he gets a kick out it, and that getting support would encourage it more, whereas I'm saying it's a form of defense (but not a very effective one, (edit)nor a very ethical one (end edit)) after he realized his original words ran into resistance.

[vulturesrow]

I think calling the man a racist is a bit extreme, especially because it doesnt necessarily follow that he is racist just because he believes she was a pawn of the civil rights movement, no matter how many other "outs" you give him. That said, the use of the word pawn definitely has some implications that are negative as well, no matter how B&amp;P tries to spin. An interesting look at the power of simple words.

[mackthefork]

Some people don't like to offend, some don't like to be disliked, some people don't like people to think they hold unpopular ideas, and some people don't care what other people think of them. I figure he's one of the first 3 for obvious reasons, not sure if thats a bad thing or not.

Mack

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I think she was still brave, given the board:

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/677704/2/istockphoto_677704_lonely_black_pawn_against_all_t he_other_white.jpg

[twowords]

[ QUOTE ]
I think she was still brave, given the board:

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/677704/2/istockphoto_677704_lonely_black_pawn_against_all_t he_other_white.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
(To elaborate a bit, I believe that there was much flippancy about the Barbershop dialogue. Myself, I enjoy any movie that can entertain, even if the story or the dialogue are as left-field as they come. But I would not cite what an actor said in a movie as "historical evidence"!)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not citing it as "historical evidence". My reason for posting it was to show that this opinion is not limited to Beer and Pizza or to whites.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how do we get from "might have been somewhat [prejudiced]" to "he's a racist"?

[/ QUOTE ]
By jumping to conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[ QUOTE ]
Once more, here is my claim, verbatim: [ QUOTE ]
When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to substitute (c) with "ignorant of History".

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what Beer's intention was when he said that. Maybe he was just trying to stir the shitpot. Which would not make him ignorant/racist, "out of his f*cking mind, or a lousy speaker of English.

But it would be nice if we could debate other people's ideas without resorting to namecalling and race card throwing, wouldn't it?

Can the case not be made that Rosa Parks has received a lot more fame than she deserved as there were many other blacks who did they same thing she did? Obviously she is well known because her case was the one that eventually overturned the segregation of buses. But that is not something she could really control. Is it possible that her role as a secretary for the NAACP was what helped grease the wheels for her road to fame?

Or am I now both a racist and ignorant for daring to ask such questions?

[ericd]

Rosa Parks was not a pawn. She trained for the assignment.

You should do a bit of research before you belittle the courageous work of others.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Lumping current posters with a poster banned for racial comments ... Did Rosa Parks fight against injustice in the world so that you could use her to engage in character assassination?

[/ QUOTE ]
For the record, I explicitly opposed the banning of the afore-mentioned racist from these message boards. The right to one's opinion I hold sacred.

But this does not mean that opinions should not be critiqued!


[ QUOTE ]
Apologize to those you have smeared unfairly.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is nothing to apologize for. I repeat and stand by what I already wrote:

When someone describes Rosa Parks as a "passive person" and a "pawn", then that person is (a) a lousy speaker of English, (b) out of his f*cking mind, or (c) a racist.