(22's) - Just turned nut flush on a paired board.....now what?

[SammyKid11]

More early game stuff.

***** Hand History for Game 2927571007 *****
30/60 TOURNEY TEXAS HOLD'EM GAME TABLE (NL) (TOURNAMENT 16857939) - TUE OCT 25 00:01:45 EDT 2005
Table Table 69757 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: notaname42 (800)
Seat 2: slickyvick88 (915)
Seat 3: HERO (685)
Seat 4: lucaspenn (1735)
Seat 5: suppo (775)
Seat 7: cduffyr (1025)
Seat 8: wjsill (1455)
Seat 10: DannyPA0g (610)
lucaspenn posts small blind (15)
suppo posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Th, Ah ]
cduffyr calls (30)
wjsill folds.
DannyPA0g folds.
notaname42 folds.
slickyvick88 calls (30)
HERO calls (30)
lucaspenn calls (15)
suppo folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 9h, Jh, 2d ]
lucaspenn checks.
cduffyr checks.
slickyvick88 checks.
HERO bets (100)
lucaspenn folds.
cduffyr calls (100)
slickyvick88 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2h ]
cduffyr bets (30)
HERO calls (30)
** Dealing River ** : [ 8d ]
cduffyr bets (865)
cduffyr is all-In.
HERO calls (525)
HERO is all-In.

Questions:
1) Anyone have a problem PF?
2) Anyone have a problem with flop bet?
3) Most importantly, I've just hit my nut flush on the turn, villain min-bets me...I just called hoping for villain to catch a K-high flush on river OR, more likely, for him to bluff at the pot. Should I be raising right here on the turn instead, or is calling okay?

[bones]

Do whatever you think will get the money in on the turn. And if you want to hide your screenname, make sure you replace it on all streets.

[splashpot]

Definately raise the turn. If a 2, J or 9 fall, you're screwed.

[rbear]

1. Really the only thing you can play this for is the flush or 2 pair, but I generally fold.

2.I like this semi-bluff, a lot of times you'll take the pot down here, plus you have position.

3. You're not scared of much. I like the cold call, and you can value bet the river.

[SammyKid11]

Alright, cool. Yeah, I figured I played that poorly.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Really the only thing you can play this for is the flush or 2 pair, but I generally fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You won't play ATs on the button with two limpers in front of you? At the 22's? I mean, yeah, you can play it for the flush, for 2-pair, for the nut straight...and in this example you've got position and a multi-way pot. Seems like if you're EVER going to play this hand, it'd be now.

Can you give any more detail on why you're folding this PF? What do others think?

[bones]

Calling this min bet on the turn is terrible. You're allowing the player who is behind in the hand to set the price that he's being charged to draw.

[rbear]

Are you raising to induce a fold? What's the max you bet here to get most value?

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you raising to induce a fold? What's the max you bet here to get most value?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're raising to give him bad odds to call. I raise to something like 200-250 here.

[bones]

What I bet is entirely dependant on how he picked up his first 200 chips.

[rbear]

possibly too weak tight...
Obviously, I push it in a heartbeat late, but I don't like to play hands where I'm not confident in my kicker... A10 suited is 10 w/ A kicker to me, not the other way around. I want to be confident in my kicker every time I play something. Ez to muck early, late game ez push...

[Melchiades]

What was your reasoning for not raising the turn?

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your reasoning for not raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupidity. I see now that I definitely should have. I hit my hand and that player had minbet/folded a couple of times in the SnG, so I figured...don't raise him, give him an opportunity to bluff (or what might appear to him to be value bet) the river.

As it happens, I called, he hit a 2-outer on the river to make 8's full, and I busted out. Had I merely raised, the likelihood the hand ever goes to the river is much lower. And I take Scuba's point...he just named his own drawing price on me. At the price that he named, he had odds to draw to his boat. Just a bad decision is all. Glad I received some decent flaming on it.

[ilya]

Limping preflop is totally fine.

On the flop I think betting and checking are both alright. Betting will rarely win the pot right there, but you're not particularly likely to get check-raised, and if you miss, you will likely be able to take a free card on the turn. You will have a bigger pot to win those times you hit, your hand will be disguised, and your pair outs will gain value. Checking is ok too I think as it's free and leaves more players in the pot to pay you off in case you do make your hand.

Once you bet though I think you should definitely raise the turn. The chance of him having a boat on the turn are slim to none, and your bet on the flop has disguised your hand. Continue building the pot by making a solid raise to represent a good hand trying to take it down, but willing to fold on the off chance opponent has made a flush or trips.

The river is ugly as I think you're beat there fairly often, but you still gotta call.

[bones]

Huh? Did he somehow make 8s full?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? Did he somehow make 8s full?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess he did in this hand but I was just saying that in general, when a $20s player suddenly overbet-pushes the river on a paired flush board after playing passively on every other street, they have your nut flush beat unpleasantly often.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Huh? Did he somehow make 8s full?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess he did in this hand but I was just saying that in general, when a $20s player suddenly overbet-pushes the river on a paired flush board after playing passively on every other street, they have your nut flush beat unpleasantly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, 8's full. Not raising the turn was a big gaffe. I was getting greedy with my flush, not wanting to lose action, and I played like a donkey.

[bones]

I'm stunned. I'd be more than willing to type "Ilya is the greatest hand reader in the world" 50 times.

Nevermind, didn't read a previous post where you mentioned that he did in fact make 8s full.

I will write "Ilya is results oriented" 50 times though.

[Bigwig]

Raise it up on the turn. There's no way I'm giving my opponent credit for turning a full house when they just flat called the flop on that board. Maybe, but I don't think so. But you need to make pairs and top pair pay for the river card (Theory of Poker stuff). You don't have to make them pay like you would on a two tone flop, but you must make them pay.

I'dve raised the turn to something like 150.

I like your limp, and I like your flop bet. I'dve done the same.

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Do whatever you think will get the money in on the turn. And if you want to hide your screenname, make sure you replace it on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should also hide the game # also. i sent party a request for the hand number and got your screen name.

[SammyKid11]

Yeah, I wasn't giving him credit for turning a boat...just didn't want to lose him. If the board had NOT been paired, would everyone still have raised the nut flush with this same action on the turn?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm stunned. I'd be more than willing to type "Ilya is the greatest hand reader in the world" 50 times.

Nevermind, didn't read a previous post where you mentioned that he did in fact make 8s full.

I will write "Ilya is results oriented" 50 times though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I freely admit that I had seen the results but regardless, I do think that Villains very often have boats in this spot. It's true that it looks like you're scared of the flush card, but the pot isn't very big and Villain has plenty of chips. There's little pressure on him to make a big bluff.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wasn't giving him credit for turning a boat...just didn't want to lose him. If the board had NOT been paired, would everyone still have raised the nut flush with this same action on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, yes. The reason is that I'm trying to build a pot, and mini bets don't do it. I may raise very little, trying to induce a bluff. The thing I've learned over my long 25 months of serious poker, is that you're more likely to win big pots early by betting, not by calling and hoping your opponent catches something. For early in tournaments, with full tables, that 'something' will often beat you.