Help...horrid hand...friends opinion divided....

[lorinda]

Pokerstars sat for $200nl, 21 slots, 100 players left, early in tourney.
I'm confident that I am at least as good as the average player in the field.

PokerStars Game #6909xxxx: Tournament #127130, Hold'em No Limit - Level II
(15/30) - 2003/06/07 - 22:50:30 (EST)
Table '127130 13' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: A (1835 in chips)
Seat 2: B (1305 in chips)
Seat 3: C (2970 in chips)
Seat 4: lorinda (1295 in chips)
Seat 5: E (1445 in chips)
Seat 6: F (2135 in chips)
Seat 8: G (2215 in chips)
Seat 9: H (1030 in chips)
H: posts small blind 15
A: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lorinda [Qh Qc]
B: raises 60 to 90
C: raises 360 to 450
lorinda: NEEDS HELP BADLY


I have never asked for views before, but this one I am having trouble working out what to do.

Lori

[Your Mom]

With normal players, I think I muck it lorinda.

[JayKon]

Yes, assuming that B isn't a maniac, muck. While you might even have the best of it, you could get pot-stuck and busted. I've laid JJ down to that type of action (though not enough).

Jay

[maplepig]

If he's an experienced solid player, I would have reraised allin. C has raised a bit too much for AA. His raise looks like an act to get everyone fold including B. With AA, KK, he would probably prefer a call by B. So he's more likely to have JJ, TT than AA, KK. If he's an unexperienced player, he may be afraid of smaller pairs call and hit a trip and he has a hard time lay down premium pairs. By betting 450, no one has the odds to call with small pairs. Against an unknown player, I fold.

[Justaloser]

The first question that popped into my mind was what have you seen from the other players? Were they loose/aggressive?
I've seen almost maniacal players able to get such a large stack that quickly, but I've also seen really solid players get the same amount by calling the same maniacs.

If I thought he was a loose player, I'd call to see the flop. If you felt that he was solid, then I'd probably call anyway, but I'm justaloser. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

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[Magician]

If you think you're a great player compared to the field you fold as you will get other chances later on.

If you think you're just average or below average you go all-in:

1) Looking at C's stack - it's quite big and this implies a willingness to gamble

2) He's betting more than 3x the pot - it may imply a not so solid hand (i.e. he really wants others to fold)

3) Your all-in has a small chance of making him fold even KK (he has a large stack so he's not too committed yet)

[Greg (FossilMan)]

In the real world, I would have to draw my judgment from the player, what I know about them, how they're acting, etc. Online, I would usually go all-in here. Since you can't read them, you have to go with what is most likely for online players (unless you have a history with this player, in which case that will make your judgment for you). Online, QQ is the best hand much more often than it's behind here. I mean, your EV is positive against "typical" online players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hi Lori,

I was in the same tourney and occaisionally would glance at your table to see how you were doing. I'm trying to rmember if I recognized anybody else there, but no luck.
The question is - "What does C have" as unless B has AA, he's gone if you raise all-in. If C is a reasonable player, to play back at a UTG open-raise, I'd have to put him on a pair QQ or up, or AK, with the outside chance, if he's very aggressive, to have Axs (where x is Q-9).

Even if he's likely to play the lower suited aces as often as the better hands, you're looking, at best, at a dead-even coin flip.

Sklansky says to avoid the close ones early. I'm not saying *I'd* find it easy to fold here, but I think this is one of those times that a hand you don't play helps you win.

[Fmonti]

I kind of agree with Kurnoso with folding..If you go all in and win the pot you gain $500. Is that amount worth the risk of being eliminated so early in the tournament? Although you would be risking about 1/3 of your chips what about calling? Now if an A or K don't appear on the flop your odds of winning the hand goes up..If they do at least your still in the tournament and with the blinds so low you can still get back in the thick of things...

[lorinda]

My thoughts, and then what happened,

I had just been dumped onto the table and didn't know anything about either raiser.

I figured that the reraiser didnt want a flop, but I still have the UTG raise to worry about.
Also the reraiser might be making a big raise here with Aces hoping that UTG also has a big hand...it's not a totally mad assumption.

I considered that if they are the sort of players who can raise and reraise UTG and UTG+1 and both have worse than QQ then at least if I fold, I have position on a pair of poor players for as long as the table lasts and if I raise all in, I felt that I was gambling because I don't think I have enough to get the reraiser to fold AK.

I don't want to call and treat the QQ as a small pocket for what is around 1/3rd my stack, and also encourage UTG to call too.

Also, although a very small factor, there are still six players behind me.

I decided to wait for a better chance, the blinds are still small, and I figured that a better opportunity would come up.

Another point to discuss is that had this been a tournament not a satellite, I would have been more inclined to go for it.
(Im not sure I would though)

lorinda: folds
E: folds
F: folds
G: folds
H: folds
A: folds
B: folds
C collected 225 from pot
C: shows [Jh Jd] (a pair of Jacks)

40 minutes and not a pair or ace-rag later.. I go all in with 66 and lose to Q8 suited /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

Thanks to all who replied,

Lori

[Stew]

Hi Lorinda, glad to see you ventured out of the zoo, not that it isn't more friendly there, but the gates aren't locked.


Anyway, IMO, this is an easy fold. Too early in the tourney to take a gamble on this one. If you don't fold, you have to push all in. But, it is a clear fold IMO.