pocket 10s on the BB

[Ray_bob]

still early no reads
is this a bad reraise pre-flop

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (15 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero folds.

River: (11.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[Yerma]

It is a bad reraise preflop.

[bwana devil]

id reraise w/ TT on the flop. once the A hits i like the bet to see how many people stick around. you had so many callers and no help from the turn you can be sure somebody has an A and just let it go.

well played.

bwana

[Duerig]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a bad reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually like the pf reraise.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a bad reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. OP played well.

I'm not capping TT PFlop unless the others are just loooooose.

I think you are in trouble on that flop. Someone has at least an Ahigh. I'd check it through to see what action is to follow. If there are flop callers no raise then I would call due to the pot size. If I hit I'm planning to Check Raise all those callers on the Turn. I'm folding Turn unimproved because you are not going to have the odds to call

Flop bet seems like a waste to me. What are you hoping to accomplish with it?
I'm assuming you want to be raised to get your information. I think the information would be free if you just see what the others are going to do. The flop bet could very likely induce someone to raise in order to protect their hand. A raise will be bad for you.

He only 3 bet pf. Normally TT is 3 bet pf, so what's the difference here? OOP? The cold caller?

[ QUOTE ]
still early no reads
is this a bad reraise pre-flop

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (15 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, SB folds, Hero folds.

River: (11.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I don't 3 bet here b/c we are OOP. We have an equity edge but IMO playing it OOP here 5 handed kind of negates that. I'd much rather be able to c/r CO on the flop.

Isn't one of the main advantages of 3betting that you might eliminate 2 villians, making it a much nicer 3 handed game for TT?

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't one of the main advantages of 3betting that you might eliminate 2 villians, making it a much nicer 3 handed game for TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

How often does that happen?

[@bsolute_luck]

nh. good discipline postflop. not 3-betting this preflop is a crime at these stakes.

3betting seems over aggressive to me with TT. There are just a lot of overcards that can come that will make you slow down. I think the three bet over inflates the pot and now the hero almost has to call down with a worse hand hoping to hit the other T.

At what pocket pair do you stop 3 betting. If you are going to tell me its for the trips value then would 22 and 33 be three bets also.

What about if hero had position on the limpers, pfr, and cc?

[shant]

It's not for trips value. TT is a good hand. The CO just gave you an oppurtunity to get the pot possibly 3-handed, where TT will have even more of an edge.

Also, the pot is not so bloated that we have to call trying to hit a T. Hero evaluates on the turn, realizes it is likely someone has an Ace. He isn't getting proper odds to draw to 2 outs and folds.

[bwana devil]

the reason to raise preflop is not to eliminate people.

it is so people can, if they choose, put money into the pot while they are still an underdog.

you hold TT. villian holds A5. you are a huge favorite. raise and hope villian calls. sometimes an A will hit and you'll be behind but more times than not you'll win the hand and villians money he put in preflop. if you only called villian can see no A is on the flop and fold.

pretend for the next 10 hands you'll get AA. you'll raise preflop as you should. do you want the entire table to fold so you collect the blinds for 10 hands? or do you want the entire table to call and you'll win 20% of the time but the pots will be huge? i'll take choice B.

bwana

Okay, not to eliminate people, but to protect your hand (make their call unprofitable, or profitable for you). To avoid the "mathematical catastrophe" of getting beat by someone who would have folded to a bet or a raise.

Seems like you are already going to get your odds to hit your trips on the flop with just calling the raise.

Calling the PFR would also give you some ability to check raise somewhere down the road when the Overcards bet the flop with a Ten in it.

If you don't have the discipline to fold on the flop when you don't hit your trip and the overcard comes then I think the 3bet almost ties you to the pot.


*****************
I'm not saying the 3bet is horrible just very close. Would you 3bet 99?

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, not to eliminate people, but to protect your hand (make their call unprofitable, or profitable for you). To avoid the "mathematical catastrophe" of getting beat by someone who would have folded to a bet or a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that's what youre doing by raising preflop. youre making their call unprofitable (or at least hoping to if they dont have AA-JJ).

so once the board unfolds you can evaluate how you should play your hand. but TT preflop is a strong hand so be sure and play it like it is.

If I was in better position and knew that the others were committed to the pot then the 3bet is not such a big deal. I then think the huge pot created and the chance to get a free flop card because you were so aggressive makes the play more valuable.

I don't think you make enough people fold at this level to get it three handed and I don't think its strong enough to play when overcards come and there are so many people in the pot.

Its just a tough hand to play multihanded if you don't hit trips and I think the PFR call already gets you the odds you need.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like you are already going to get your odds to hit your trips on the flop with just calling the raise.

Calling the PFR would also give you some ability to check raise somewhere down the road when the Overcards bet the flop with a Ten in it.

If you don't have the discipline to fold on the flop when you don't hit your trip and the overcard comes then I think the 3bet almost ties you to the pot.


*****************
I'm not saying the 3bet is horrible just very close. Would you 3bet 99?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is it here and it really depends on how bad the other players are and how big your preflop equity edge. IMO playing this hand OOP 5 handed might overcome our preflop equity edge. But it is close. In this sitution I just call b/c I want to be able to c/r CO on a favorable flop and protect my hand.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]

Its just a tough hand to play multihanded if you don't hit trips and I think the PFR call already gets you the odds you need.

[/ QUOTE ]

as someone else mentioned, youre not trying to hit trips to win w/ this. TT does not need trips to win. if youre playing this way reevaluate what youre doing w/ this hand.

EDIT you can never have too good of odds. keep making them better.

I don't think the 3bet is to protect your hand. That would imply you don't want people to call profitably (Which a raise is already accomplishing). I think the 3bet is purely for value but its slim

I'm not saying I would fold it - I just wouldn't bloat the pot with 5 callers.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying I would fold it - I just wouldn't bloat the pot with 5 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand that. im asking you to rethink that strategy.

bwana.

I hear what you're saying.

At what pocket pair do you not 3bet?

*grunch*
I check the flop. It's a completely different and much more interesting hand after that. Betting this flop is spewing IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I check the flop. It's a completely different and much more interesting hand after that. Betting this flop is spewing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't take into account the 3 bet preflop. I don't see it changing my opinion. Please flame me. I'd love to know why we're betting here. There's no way in hell that you're folding anyone for one bet.

I don't like this PF 3 bet at all. And I can't imagine why so many people are advocating it. I'd love to see the maths (which I'm not talented enough to do) on 1. the percentage chance an overcard flops and 2. the percentage chance you're not behind when it's 5 handed.

I think you'll find the extra bet OOP PF is -EV.

I'll give the basic stuff a try.

A,K,Q,J on the flop. (16\50)(16\49)(16\48)

By my calculations (which are more often that not wrong) there is a 97% chance an overcard will fall on the flop.

Chance that 1 opponent holds that overcard.
(3\50)(3\49) = 12.1%
12.1%*4 villians = 48.4%
48.4%*97% the card flops = 47%

EDIT: It's actually a little better than this.
You know 5 cards that aren't the overcard (assuming he didn't make a set)
(3\47)(3\46)
4 villians
~51%


50% of time you have TT someone will make a better pair. This isn't too bad, until you consider the following.

1. This is assuming everyone plays completely random cards (it's a raised pot, this is FAR from the case).
2. This is assuming only 1 overcard falls on the flop, and I imagine a large amount of time more than one overcard falls.
3. This is assuming that villian only makes 1 pair. You've got str8 draws, flush draws, 2 pr all of which have a better chance of improving than you (if not beating you already).
4. It only gets worse after the flop.

5 handed, you are definitely playing TT for it's set potential.

I did go back and look at TT in SSH and its definitely a Reraise according ot both tight and loose preflop suggestions.

However, I think it is a tough hand to play OOP and without trips. I think a majority of value with TT comes when the trips hit. I don't think it holds up well unimproved if Overcards appear on Flop or Turn.

Your calculations of an overcard hitting aren't correct. What you calculated is the chance of drawing three higher cards than T in a row, with putting each of the drawn cards back into the deck. By the way the correct answer then is 3% not 97%. 97% is the chance that you don't draw 3 in a row.
You have to calculate the chances of a flop with NO higher card, which would be: (34/50)*(33/49)*(32/48)
This shows that the chances of a flop with no higher cards are 30,5%. In these cases you reasonably hold the best hand.
So the preflop 3-bet IS FOR VALUE against 5 opponents, even if you don't hit your set.
If you want me to explain those calculations further, you can send me a message anytime. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is good. Someone who knows what they're doing mathematically. Thanks for the calculations.

What your maths has told us is that 60% of the time, an overcard flops.

Now calculate the times that an overcard doesn't hit in 4 and 5 cards. Because overcards are now staying in because the pot is bloated and you are now playing them as high pair. The only upshot to this is that you get a small chance to make your set again. But you also have to be aware that even OC are going to be raising this flop and it's going to cost you.


When Hero holds a pair, there's something like a 40% chance someone else has a pair. If it's higher than Hero's he's a dog.
Now calculate the chance that someone who has a lower pair hasn't made a set, when the board is all lower than a T.

Take away all the times this is a 3 flush board (your T flush isn't going to be good).

All these factors including implied odds the odds for your TT plummet dramatically.

If you don't make a set in a five way pot with TT you are in a world of pain.


BTW. If you went all in against 5 players who play totally random cards with no post flop betting. TT would only win 30% of the time. I think basing your raise on the figure you came up with is seriously flawed.


<font color="blue"> You raise a 5+multiway pot with TT in order to induce many people to go further with their hands when you make your set and they are big dogs.
The pot is already raised for you. Raising it any further is -EV IMO. </font>

All people on this board saying they 3 bet for value, because TT is a good hand and it's not because of it's set making qualities - TAKE MY CHALLENGE.

KWAZZIE's TT RERAISE CHALLENGE.

Go to your Poker Tracker.
Do a simple filter.

Filter for hands where 5 or more saw the flop.
Go to your TT hands.
Chances are it's in the negative. If it isn't. Now filter out manually all the hands where you didn't make a set or a full house.

Now tell me that TT in a 5 way pot isn't played for set value.

The probability of a rainbow flop with no high cards is about 15%(hopefully didn't make a mistake here). Looks good enough to me, since even if the flop shows a 2-flush,there is no guarantee someone has hit a flush draw. So i'm not scared enough of the flush to not 3-bet.
With 5 opponents i'm pretty sure not all of them will have 2 overcards. I guess at least 2 of them will have a lower pocket pair or lower suited connectors or maybe even nothing good at all. Even against 2 overcards you are the favorite, not much, but you are. So the only thing you really have to fear preflop is a higher pair. But someone with a higher pair would almost always have raised or reraised, and i have seen a lot of callers, but only one raiser so far. The raiser could also have many other hands like AK,AQ,AJ,KQ,... If he is loose/aggressive he could also have something less than that. So i'm pretty sure you have a pot equity edge here.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
All people on this board saying they 3 bet for value, because TT is a good hand and it's not because of it's set making qualities - TAKE MY CHALLENGE.

KWAZZIE's TT RERAISE CHALLENGE.

Go to your Poker Tracker.
Do a simple filter.

Filter for hands where 5 or more saw the flop.
Go to your TT hands.
Chances are it's in the negative. If it isn't. Now filter out manually all the hands where you didn't make a set or a full house.

Now tell me that TT in a 5 way pot isn't played for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't play preflop based on fear of postflop. i'll deal with that when it comes. i'm 3-betting because i think i have the best hand right now. i 3-bet AA-JJ for the same reasons even though on the flop someone (like TT) could hit their 2 outer or 2 pair or a straight or a flush. sure they could suckout on me, but i'm not giving A5o a cheap look at the flop simply because he'll get an overcard a percentage of the time.

[TripleH68]

My gut is telling me to call preflop. And I am pretty sure that is how I would play it at most tables.

That said we are way ahead plenty of limping hands like smaller pps, suited aces, suited connectors.

If CO raises light and is a flop auto-bettor it would be nice to use him on the flop. Thinking players are often scared of a check-raise from the BB who could hold anything when rags flop. Now if the players trapped between hero and CO are very aggressive - perhaps this changes things.

Just thinking out loud as there does not seem to be a default play here.

[DMBFan23]

doesn't my set value give me good value on my reraise though, considering I'll have the highest set more often than like 22, and I can also win unimproved very often?

[DMBFan23]

I might just smoothcall preflop, TT is the borderline one for me. I call 99 pretty much always and reraise JJ pretty much always, so TT I check the ambient temperature and the prevailing winds and I 3 bet if I don't have the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif...not really, I guess I don't have a guideline.

postflop is beautiful, flop bet is necessary cause the pot is so big you'd call a bet anyways so you should bet to get KJ, QJ, etc to fold.

[Avatar of Wine]

2 key points here:

1 - Why are we assuming that none of the limpers won't fold to 2 more? Many of those contemplating calling seem to think we're "bloating the pot" for the limped hands, which presumably contain overcards (another assertion that may or may not be true) - even at micro, there is a non-zero chance of folding one or more of the villains, which would be a coup.

2 - Even in the supposed worst-case scenario, 5 ways for 3 bets, is it impossible to think that our equity is greater than 20%? Past that, in the 12.5% chance we spike a set, won't we still cover our edge for the preflop 3-bet?

Just for reference, here's a 2dimes of what seems like a possible range (and ignores the very real possibility that low suited connectors or other jank is following along), just so we can see how we might be over 20% even with overcards out there:


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1300645

Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Th 204983 24.10 643253 75.62 2432 0.29 0.242
As Kd 196062 23.05 647998 76.18 6608 0.78 0.234
Ks Js 130398 15.33 713662 83.89 6608 0.78 0.156
Qd 9d 162331 19.08 685905 80.63 2432 0.29 0.191
7d 7h 150286 17.67 697950 82.05 2432 0.29 0.177

[DMBFan23]

good points, and they definitely support re-raising. I don't think either PF option is horrible, I think I slightly prefer re-raising but as I mentioned I mix it up.

TT double check....

I took another look at all of the TT hands I've seen or my opponents have seen. I was real interested in seeing how many times the Unimproved pair holds up.

Total - Could be against any number of opponents
Win Percentage - 1674 Flops Seen
One Pair --------&gt; 30.97%
Two Pair --------&gt; 39.41%
Flush --------&gt; 54.55%
Three Of A Kind --------&gt; 76.99%
Straight --------&gt; 81.08%
Full House --------&gt; 82.05%
Four Of A Kind --------&gt; 100.00%
Straight Flush --------&gt; 100.00%


Sample size is small but against 4 opponents
Win Percentage - 469 Flops Seen
One Pair --------&gt; 26.11%
Two Pair --------&gt; 35.29%
Straight --------&gt; 69.23%
Flush --------&gt; 71.43%
Three Of A Kind --------&gt; 78.08%
Full House --------&gt; 85.71%
Four Of A Kind --------&gt; 100.00%