The Worst Heads Up Sin?

[Indiana]

Building a pot out of position with a decent but vunerable hand. Example: I have K9, no raise before flop and opponent is aggressive. Flop is Q92 rainbow. Dont build a pot because you will be raised on the end.

Thoughts? Other sins?

Indy

Worst Heads Up Sin = Folding too much

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
Worst Heads Up Sin = Folding too much

[/ QUOTE ]

this is indeed the worst heads up sin and I believe harrington says as much in vol II

[tjh]

The worst heads up sin is not paying attention to the other player. HU is all about reading your opponent.

In regards to the not building a pot out of position with second pair. I assume that you do not mean to check the flop. Bet the flop if your opponent calls then you fear the top pair. HU I play second pair as if it was top pair until the other player calls or plays back at me. Bet the flop, then decide what to do on the turn, if there is a turn.

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tjh

[The Yugoslavian]

Playing Irieguy for actual $$.

I'm not even kidding.

Also, what you do with your hand has less to do with the actual hand and EVERYTHING to do with your opponents actual hand and how they will play it.

Yugoslav

[Blarg]

I wouldn't put this number one, because number one has already been taken, for one, but here's a gaffe I do sometimes:

Pushing a marginal hand to steal the blinds when your stack doesn't require it, even though you know your opponent is so poor heads up that your chances to take first are excellent if you just play it cool a bit.

Push too often and you reduce your opponent's folding range to zero, and teach him not to fear you. Give up the occasional blind or just complete the occasional small blind instead of pushing it, and you keep the credibility to blitz him with unopposed steals later. And on some of those, you might actually have the cards and want a call.

[Indiana]

I do agree that Irie appears to be good. He has agreed to play me soon. We played last week and he was very aggressive.

Indy

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that Irie appears to be good. He has agreed to play me soon. We played last week and he was very aggressive.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I didn't watch the two of you play and I'm sure I already know why he was very aggressive....

Do you?

It's not that he appears to be good, he actually is. Not just at HU SNGs either.

I'll play you if you want but not at the stakes Irie is likely to want to play you at. I also am *significantly* worse HU than Irie.

Yugoslav

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that Irie appears to be good. He has agreed to play me soon. We played last week and he was very aggressive.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Worst STT forum sin... Not taking good advice from respected posters !

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tjh

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that Irie appears to be good. He has agreed to play me soon. We played last week and he was very aggressive.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Worst STT forum sin... Not taking good advice from respected posters !

--
tjh

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with expert STTer advice and actually understanding and implementing it.

Unfortunately for myself I have a much easier time with the first two parts (agreeing and understanding)....while the implementation is the bane of my poker existence.

I wouldn't be surprised if Indy has a foot in all three of those camps I just mentioned.

Yugoslav

Well, since folding too much is already taken, I'm going to say failing to change gears. Predictable play will get you eaten alive by good heads up players.

[microbet]

You spent untold tens of thousands of dollars to learn Haiku out in the arctic tundra, the least you can do in your pursuit of perfection in poker is lose a little money to Irie.

[SumZero]

I don't know about 7 deadly HU sin but my list would look something like:

1. Folding too much.
2. Slow playing vulnerable hands (I.e., nearly all of them. For example see Scotty HU in PSII quarterfinals).
3. Raising too little.
4. Not adjusting to opponents tendancies.
5. Calling too much.
6. Never bluffing.
7. Folding your sb when your opponent is not raising your limp.

[Indiana]

Yugo,

Irie is likely better than me but I'm not sure by how much. Basically in our first match we got it all in when I had flopped top two pair and he had an overpair. After the money was in and I was a big favorite, he caught two pair on the turn and drew me out. This was a final four match for the 2+2 weekly heads up challenge. He has pointed out my obvious trash talking and attitude problem, which I have promised to work on if he will play me again.

Indy

My heads up leak: not thinking. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9c 2d ]
MDP430 calls [150].
Hero checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 5h, 2c ]
Hero checks.
MDP430 is all-In [5765]
Hero is all-In [3635]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
Hero shows [ 9c, 2d ] a pair of twos.
MDP430 shows [ 6c, Qh ] a pair of sixes.

[The Yugoslavian]

Well that certainly is impressive.

You should play 5 $200 HU SNGs with him as it sounds like you very well may have an overlay.

Yugoslav

[Indiana]

Funny Yugo, Funny. I would be really dumb to play at that limit with a known expert. I want to develop my game so I'd love to play him for $20 or so, but I ain't gonna make my life so hard by playing him for that kind of cheese.

Indy

[The Yugoslavian]

Naw...I think you need to put the smackdown on that little batch....Irie ain't got sh!t on you!

Yugoslav

[Indiana]

Stop trying to pad ur best friend's bankroll. Actually, I don't think that 5 games would prove much. I may actually win 3/5 due to the variance of HU matches. I do respect this guy's game so I will just hope to get the opp to play him again.

Indy

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Building a pot out of position with a decent but vunerable hand. Example: I have K9, no raise before flop and opponent is aggressive. Flop is Q92 rainbow. Dont build a pot because you will be raised on the end.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. If the guy "will" raise me on the end, I happily build the pot and call the river raise.

eastbay

[PrayingMantis]

The worst HU sin is thinking that if something is a sin against player X, it's also necessarily a sin against player Y.

[Indiana]

eastbay,

you will call? what if he has a better hand than you? That's just it, there is value in position and he can put you to the test on the end. On a lighter note, its almost here again:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tournaments/tournament.php?tid=197

Indy

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Building a pot out of position with a decent but vunerable hand. Example: I have K9, no raise before flop and opponent is aggressive. Flop is Q92 rainbow. Dont build a pot because you will be raised on the end.

Thoughts? Other sins?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your point either. If he's raising you on the end simply because he's an "aggressive" player, like you said, then if you fold your decent but vulnerable hand (btw, the fact that it's vulnerable has nothing to do with your river play) and are afraid to build a pot because of his "expected raise" on the end, then you are simply getting outplayed.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Worst Heads Up Sin = Folding too much

[/ QUOTE ]

[Indiana]

If I "KNOW" that he is going to raise as a bluff then sure I agree. If I am a better player though, I dont want to call off my stack on the end with 3rd high pair when he could have me beat. Lots of opponents will bluff here on the end. Lots of them. And you wont know if you are beat or not until it the money goes in.

Indy

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
If I "KNOW" that he is going to raise as a bluff then sure I agree. If I am a better player though, I dont want to call off my stack on the end with 3rd high pair when he could have me beat. Lots of opponents will bluff here on the end. Lots of them. And you wont know if you are beat or not until it the money goes in.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but you are getting outplayed by a big margin if this is your thinking vs. this "particular" player.

[Indiana]

A nice alternative here is to check call by the way.
You could, perhaps, begin building a small pot on the turn but if you have been betting flop, turn, and river with higher cards coming down then any idiot can figure that you are a little weak and push u off the hand.
Indy

[Indiana]

Believe me when I say this, I'm speaking from literally hundreds of hands of experience with this. You will be raised off this hand enough to cost u lots in the long run. Am I alone here? You want me to provide an example and you can tell me what you would do?

Indy

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Believe me when I say this, I'm speaking from literally hundreds of hands of experience with this. You will be raised off this hand enough to cost u lots in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are talking about the end of a SnG, I will be raised off this hand pretty much never.

eastbay

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Believe me when I say this, I'm speaking from literally hundreds of hands of experience with this. You will be raised off this hand enough to cost u lots in the long run. Am I alone here? You want me to provide an example and you can tell me what you would do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are clearly misunderstanding something here. What exactly will "cost you money"? Folding better hands to bluffs or calling with losers?

Your logic is flawed, because you have just said in a previous post: "Lots of opponents will bluff here on the end. Lots of them. And you wont know if you are beat or not until it the money goes in."

If you are getting bluffed so often, like you say yourself, then clearly the only thing that costs you money is folding your winners (i.e, those "decent hands"). If you succeed in building a pot AND getting bluffed at the end often enough, then obviously it's a very profitable line for you to take.

[Indiana]

eastbay,

of course I am not talking about the end of a SNG. Im talking about a deep stacked heads up match. Sorry. I play them so much that I forgot about end of SNG HU. Its different with the blind structure.

Indy

[Indiana]

I think I am doing a poor job of conveying my message. There are obviously times when this is ok, but in general it is risky against a good opponent.

Indy

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that Irie appears to be good. He has agreed to play me soon. We played last week and he was very aggressive.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Worst STT forum sin... Not taking good advice from respected posters !

--
tjh

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference between agreeing with expert STTer advice and actually understanding and implementing it.

Unfortunately for myself I have a much easier time with the first two parts (agreeing and understanding)....while the implementation is the bane of my poker existence.

I wouldn't be surprised if Indy has a foot in all three of those camps I just mentioned.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

I was merely joking here that the OP was told NOT to play Irie for cash HU and imediately set off to play Irie for cash HU.

That is all...

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
eastbay,

of course I am not talking about the end of a SNG. Im talking about a deep stacked heads up match. Sorry. I play them so much that I forgot about end of SNG HU. Its different with the blind structure.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Indy, seeing as this is the STT forum, I think most people are assuming you mean the end of a single table. If that's not the case maybe your question is better placed in the Heads Up & Short Handed forum.