Going too far?

[incognito]

The following three hands came up during an atrocious session of online $1/$2. I think that I would have played them all the same way regardless, but I'm a little shaken now and thought I'd post them to see if others thought I should have got out earlier. The table I was at was pretty loose with a couple of better players that don't figure prominently in the hands below.

First hand, I pick up A /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif UTG and raise. Folded to the cutoff who calls two cold. The blinds call too and it's four to the flop.

The flop comes K /forums/images/icons/club.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I bet, cutoff calls, blinds fold.

The turn is the J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. I bet, cutoff raises, I call.

The river is the 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. I check, cutoff bets, I call and lose to KJo.

Second hand, I have 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in middle position. UTG limps, folded to me, I call, small blind completes, big blind checks. UTG here is very loose, could have anything.

The flop comes 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. Blinds check, UTG bets. He could still have anything; something like A8s or K8s is what I'm thinking. So I raise. Blinds fold, UTG raises, I just call, even though I'm pretty sure I have the best hand, hoping that UTG will bet into me the rest of the way.

The turn is the 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif. UTG bets, I call.

The river is the K /forums/images/icons/club.gif. UTG bets, I call and lose to AKo.

Third hand, I have red kings in the cutoff. Folded to me, I raise, cutoff calls two cold, blinds fold. I've seen the cutoff call two cold with as little as T8o.

The flop comes 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif. I bet, cutoff raises, I reraise, cutoff caps, I call. At this point, I think I'm behind to two pair or a set because although he's loose, this guy isn't usually this agressive. Probably two pair with this guy. Should I get out here? I ended up calling him down through the river and losing to his pocket fives.

[GrinningBuddha]

Personally, I like how you played the hands. The only way you were going to win any of them would be to have your opponent fold, and I don't really see any opportunities for that on those hands. You had the opponents in hands 1 and 3 dominated, and couldn't ask for a much better situation. Hand 2 you were in a good spot too and will win your fair share of those matchups. Consider the lost pots an investment in an education on how those particular opponents play. You'll get the money back with interest if they continue to play like this.

[elysium]

hi incog
semi-bluff from first position by betting out with your 9+ out and over-card. also, sometimes check-raise semi-bluff as well as check-raising your top pair type hands. you need to get your opponents to raise with lesser hands on the turn, trying to fold out your draw or reduce your draw odds. this way youre calling stronger and weaker holdings when you get raised on the turn. also, note which players never raise without a strong made hand. and get a bluff in on the turn once a night or so.

[nichtgut]

Hi
1st hand: Well played, straight forward, I can't imagine playing it otherwise.
2nd hand: Raise pre-flop. Your hand is strong and you want to get heads up with the loose limper. You don't want a hand like QT to come in cheaply behind you. Then on the flop, I would call his reraise, and raise him again on the turn.
3rd hand: If you put him on two pair, you can't get out, you have odds to draw. Well played IMHO. River is a call because the pot is so big.

/Nicht Gut

[Ed Miller]

The first hand, I would muck to the turn raise here against most opponents. That raise is at least trips most of the time. There is no flush draw on board, and the only decent straight draw is QT. Furthermore, your opponent will expect you to call because the first hand they put you on when you raise is AK (though they still call with KJ anyway, for some reason). You are beaten here and can fold pretty safely.

Hand two I would have played completely differently. I would have raised the loose limper with 99, not just called. You would love to play headsup with position and a strong hand against this guy with dead money in the pot. Just calling the flop 3-bet is fine, but you should do so with the intention of raising the turn. The pot is big enough now that you need to start thinking about protecting it, and it is easy for your opponent to have 5 or more outs against your hand. You would actually generally prefer that he fold to your turn raise, not call, so you need to raise and give him a chance to fold.

In hand three, I would find it difficult to muck the Kings unless my opponent was the Rock of Gibraltar.

[Zag]

I have to disagree with most posters and say that I think you misplayed every hand. (Sorry)

Hand 1: Consider laying this down on the turn, depending on the opponent. Once you've called the turn, you might as well call the river, since it is a limit game.

Hand 2: You put him on a worse hand (and you were correct, at the time) so you should have either capped the flop or raised the turn. If he calls your turn bet, you make the same as if you just called turn and river, plus you have a chance to make another bet on the river. If he raises, you can lay it down confidantly. If he folds, then you might have missed snapping off a bluff on the river, but you've also taken away his chance to draw out on you. Your overpair of 9's is extremely vulnerable (as you saw) so you should keep all possible pressure on.

Hand 3: You put him on 2-pair or a set when there were only 6 big bets in the pot. Then you called 2 and a half more big bets to win 8 total, just to see your read confirmed. If he has a set, you had only 2 outs, if two pair, you have more outs but you have no idea which ones they are (other than a running pair). When you consider your costs to be 16 to 5, you can see that you don't have odds to chase.

I have to admit that I have never bet, reraised, then folded to one more, but it was the right play, given your read of the player. (Maybe go ahead and call the cap on the flop at 12 to 1, but check-fold the turn.)

I have a lot of trouble trusting my reads, too, but it seems like you had a pretty solid one here and you failed to follow it.

[Zag]

Since I disagreed with just about everybody, here, I'd really like some (hopefully constructive) feedback. To all the people (including the original poster) with whom I disagreed: Please rate my post 1-10, on this scale.

1. Some good points, now that I have thought about this more deeply, I agree with everything this genius has said.
5. Interesting points, but I think I still disagree with most of them.
10. Zag, shut up you big windbag.

No 15's or higher please. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Ed Miller]

I basically agree with you, Zag. I kind of disagree with you on the KK hand, though not by much. I only question the read... (or rather, I question my own reads when I make such a limiting read in a headsup pot). People play flush draws (especially with overcards) this way all the time... and it would be easy for his opponent to have a smaller overpair as well. If I'm playing this hand against my grandmother, then I can probably lay down on the turn... because I would say "set", not "two pair or set". If two pair is a reasonable option then you gotta call the turn too, because you have 8 outs to beat two pair. Our hero open-raised from late position, so his opponent isn't likely to put him on a hand as strong as KK and may overplay a strong one pair type hand.

Basically, in a headsup pot I'm just not as likely to give someone credit for a big hand.

Otherwise, I think your comments are spot on.

[JTG51]

I agree with you for the most part, especially on the first two hands. I'd probably see a showdown in the 3rd hand. Two pair doesn't seem all that likely with that board, but if he did have two pair folding KK on the flop or turn would be a big mistake.

[GrinningBuddha]

Yes, valid points. Given the texture of the turn board, it's much more likely he's beat on the first hand. I hate admitting I'm beat when I should have someone dominated though. :P

Raising the turn may just win the hand, but given the apparent aggressiveness of this loose player, I wonder if it's even worth it to isolate him. If you're not comfortable with this type of play (I wouldn't be), let him duke it out with someone else heads up.