Another hand against flawless...

[AZK]

He wanted this posted too...I think the K is a bad card for me on the turn, if it was anything else I would have probably check-raised all in...still kinda curious if I have any type of leverage being that he has invested like 50% of his stack here already...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($2037)
BB ($2010)
Hero ($3902)
UTG+1 ($1994)
UTG+2 ($2793)
MP1 ($2222)
MP2 ($430)
MP3 ($2255.50)
CO ($2095.50)
Button ($3053)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $245</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $175.

Flop: ($520) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $320</font>, Hero calls $320.

Turn: ($1160) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $800</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $1960

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Button wins $1960. </font>

[etizzle]

I like a fold preflop in this hand, if we were in position hands like this would go a lot better and it makes a big difference.

edit: i was confused

[AZK]

Actually this was on a different table... not that it matters..

[flawless_victory]

i think he shouldve folded pre, but he called.
postflop seems pretty tough here to me... many different ways to play it... he got what hes looking for (sorta) in a double raised pot, so maybe he should just go ahead and CR the flop allin... the problem is i will likely be calling him w/ AA-JJ pretty fast.
do yall think he played it good? seems like he should try to test me somewhere, but i dont know... after the turn bet, the pot is pretty big for me to lay anything down.

[Big_Jim]

Clearly flawless's re-raising range is wider than many, but JT seems like a fold to me, OOP PF.

I suppose that lead/3-bet flop all in is an option, and since his range is so wide, it probably has pretty good fold equity, but I think it's too much risk for too weak of a draw, here, since you'll probably be 2:1 dog if you get called, and I believe he said he would call you pretty quick with JJ-AA.

Check/calling is bleh since a) your draw is pretty transparent b) he very well might have a good redraw on you or worse c)Have a hand like A/images/graemlins/heart.gifx/images/graemlins/heart.gif. d) You don't have expressed odds.
How good your implied odds are... I don't know... but you say he likes to make big laydowns.

Check/raising is bleh, since it leaves weird stacks.

I don't know how hard he defends his weak re-raises... so I don't know how well leading out would work.... but I imagine he raises you a large % of the time, and calls only rarely.

So on the flop.... either lead if he will fold his weak hands most of the time, or maybe freeze up with a big pair (although I doubt he does this).. or else... check/fold.


Since we got to the turn...

You could try a weak lead... but it seems a little transparent, and you'll probably get raised.

If you do a strong lead... you pot commit yourself.

Since you checked, and he bet strong, you're only moving him off of complete air. He's just got too much invested to be moved off of much. This includes draws, which may have you smoked.

Looks like another check/fold.

I fold PF.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

[flawless_victory]

you guys better comment on this hand or i will have you all banned.
sreious.

[AZK]

Veen and I were talking about it, thought I should have made a move on the flop, check-raise your bet to 1400, looks scarier than check-raising all in...

[arod15]

I hate the pre flop call there. I think thats an easy fold. On another note, AZK you definitly missed a great chance to steal the pot by check raising the flop to 1100. I think your option on the flop was to CR or fold.

I think calling is no good as it is too obvious what your on ...

[1800GAMBLER]

Flop raising never makes sense here, apart from balance reasons.

You either fold out the hands that you can fold outs elsewhere while not costing your out or stack against a better hand.

I still like a turn c/r all in, i love the 'haha, i know you could have made pair but you can't call' play.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]

I still like a turn c/r all in, i love the 'haha, i know you could have made pair but you can't call' play.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you think i am folding AK to a turn CR, you got another thing coming!

[cero_z]

Hi AZK,

Fold pre to the 175 re-raise, even with stacks around 4K. You are not going to get your money in good enough, often enough here when you flop a draw against a good player.

The only way I'm calling his raise is if I know I can often push him out on the flop, in which case I may even reraise pre-flop. On the flop you got, raise him big, for god's sake! Your post-flop play is an example of why you shouldn't call the pre-flop raise: Pre-flop, put in 245 losing EV...Flop, put in 320 with about neutral EV, relying on implied odds mostly...Turn, forced to fold. But, even if you'd hit on the turn, you'd have to deal with: not necessarily getting paid off unless he flopped a set or has AAh, since he can give you credit for many hands that beat one pair besides a flush, and with being redrawn on, and with occasionally losing to his AK/AQhh etc. You have to be stealing this pot quite a bit post-flop, or getting cheap drawing opportunities to make this work. Flawless is likely to give you neither.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I still like a turn c/r all in, i love the 'haha, i know you could have made pair but you can't call' play.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you think i am folding AK to a turn CR, you got another thing coming!

[/ QUOTE ]

O_O

pot is just short of 2000 after your bet. he's c/r would be 2500, you'd have 1700 to call in a 4500 pot, 4500:1700, 2.6:1.

You can't expect him to have many high suited cards given the preflop call or can you expect him to make a turn c/r given the king should scare most players into not doing this play, meanwhile 9 combinations of set make sense, sure mostly i'm raising the flop with those, but def. def nowhere always.

Give him relative decent-loose preflop calling standards and the only high suited cards are AKs KQs KQs AND factor in some weight to flush draws c/r'ing the flop AND factor in weight that most wont make this turn move and you can't expect to be against a flush here much at all, prob 1 in 10 that still beats you 1/4 on the river. Even if you don't factor them in you lose to 9 sets and beat 3 flushes, and thus must fold there. so unless you have a huge history enough to know that 1. he has the balls to make this turn play and 2. he would ALWAYS raise the flop with a set AND 3. wouldn't ever raise the flop with a flush draw has to be -EV in a vacuum.

[scooby]

(Assuming you have some history with each other)

I think your play on this hand can be looked at by answering these four questions:
1) How often do you take the "obvious low limit" line of check-calling the flop and checkraising the turn with a set or twopair?
2) How often do you take the same line with a draw?
3) How often do you take the same line AA/KK?
4) How often are you trying to make a play with a hand like 99/TT (essentially a bluff)?
keeping in mind your history between you and Flawless is obviously important as well. Flawless has to assign your play to one of thoese four hand ranges.

A fifth question- what does his combination of big reraise/not keeping the pot in control mean? Answering this question might trump all others...

[flawless_victory]

$20 to the first person who correctly guesses the villains hand.
offer expires in 24hrs. one guess per poster, clearly.

[etizzle]

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

79

[Goodie54]

44

[scdavis0]

How can you call a flop c/r all in with AA-JJ? His hand range is either a big draw or a made straight/set. You are -EV against his range, even with the dead money in the middle.

[mgsimpleton]

AQs

[Big_Jim]

QQ

[arod15]

QQ

[AZK]

this must be your weak attempt to get people to respond to thsi thread, which i think you think is more interesting than it should be. Can I guess what you had? Ha. Pay up.

[durrrr]

kk

[ahnuld]

Villan has KK (hope suits not important)

[durron597]

77

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Villan has KK (hope suits not important)

[/ QUOTE ]

go away. copycat.

[ahnuld]

Damit durrrr, serves me right for taking so long to type.

[ahnuld]

Bah! AGAIN! are you on speed???

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
77

[/ QUOTE ]

ooo yea i think this is very probable.

[BobboFitos]

AA (I dont really believe this, but no one has guessed this yet, so I want a chance at 20... /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

[Ryendal]

8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Trix]

98s

[Huskiez]

65

[chuddo]

22

[lapoker17]

I don't find this hand interesting.

[etizzle]

i think the point is that it couldve gotten a lot more interesting if AZK tries to make a move at the pot.

[SoSo]

kk?

[Rocaix]

88

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
22

[/ QUOTE ]
PM your stars info lucky.

[durrrr]

wow

[shaundeeb]

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[300CE24]

I don't know what kinda answer you want here. Wait, I do. You want to know how you could have won the pot holding nothing. I don't think you could have lot of the time. I know the levels of thinking are many at this level, but let's keep it simple. You raise pre with a marginal hand. OK. You call a decent sized reraise with now a marginal hand at best. Not OK. You proceed to low limit style check call the flop with a draw. Not OK. You consider tryin to push your opponent off his hand on the turn, when i has a considerable part of hi sstack invested. Not ok. I say fold pre flop.

[Johnnyj580]

[ QUOTE ]


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. Button wins $1960. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]


Well Played . . . I can only imagine how many people highlighted there.