An interesting hand against Flawless...

[AZK]

He asked me to post this. I'll post my thoughts later, to hear what you guys say, but there should be something glaring at you.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($2327)
UTG+1 ($2004)
UTG+2 ($2489)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($2000)</font>
MP2 ($2769.50)
MP3 ($941)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($2191)</font>
Button ($2225)
SB ($3693.70)
BB ($2585)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $65</font>, MP2 calls $65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $65, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($225) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $170</font>, MP2 calls $170, Hero calls $170.

Turn: ($735) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $225</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $750</font>, MP1 calls $750, MP2 folds.

River: ($2460) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 calls $1015 (All-In), Hero calls $1015.

Final Pot: $4490

[JMa]

he should have (AQ)/QQ/AA here all the time.

[sawseech]

chk coldcall and in any riv
hrmph
he turned it on you didn't he

[etizzle]

yeah cold call is scary, but his range is AQ/AA/QQ/22 so you gotta call the river.

You'll lose alot of the time (because we certainly have to give extra weight to AA/QQ given the way it was played), but you will definitely win 30%+.

[durrrr]

EDIT: oops i didnt realize the Q was the diamond on the flop, thought the 7 was. Erased my question.

[wdeadwyler]

Would he really play AQ this way? I think you are up against AA a damn good portion of the time here. The c/c on the turn is what I think tips it off. He is clearly not worried about giving free cards.

[AZK]

I think it's the river push more than the check/call. He likes to make big laydowns on riv. So I think that's when I really know it's not AQ, though he probably wouldn't cold call AQ on the turn, though I don't know...

[durrrr]

I don't like his play. I think he should push the turn (w/ these stack sizes imo there is no hand/ hand range where waiting is more profitable). This is assuming that the other villain in the hand is competent enough to notice flawless' coldcall.

Legitmate question from someone trying to learn the nuances of 10/20.

Is it common to see a raise to $65 in MP with AA at this level? I've been watching a lot of 10/20 lately (in fact I'm watching it now) and from what I've seen people like to raise big preflop. 3.5xBB seems small with something like AA where you don't want a lot of people seeing the flop?

[Voltron87]

if he has aa or qq i dont really see how you can possibly avoid going broke here. youre getting 3.5-1 on the river with the 4th nuts. and you cant really play the turn differently.

i'd like to see what flawless's reasoning for checking the turn was.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it common to see a raise to $65 in MP with AA at this level?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was probably more a function of our table then a standard type thing...you'd have to ask him...he does all kinds of stuff that isn't "standard"...not a bad idea breaking away from "typical" play...

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]


i'd like to see what flawless's reasoning for checking the turn was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cuz he had the nuts and thought one of two villains hit flop big and wanted to win more money out of the two of them combined.

[lapoker17]

If I'm you, against a good player, and with your image which I assume is fairly aggro, I think I like raising the flop a lot more than calling. Not super relevant to this hand, but just something for you to think about.

[not_da_nizzles]

[ QUOTE ]

i'd like to see what flawless's reasoning for checking the turn was.

[/ QUOTE ]

He turned the nuts (or has the 2nd nuts with QQ) and no one has a diamond draw here so why not check and convince MP2 that his Q might be good?

Anyways, MP2's bet on the turn looks kinda bad at first but since they're 3 handed to the turn it would be difficult for CO to raise here without a real hand so MP2 ends up getting off pretty easy.

mj

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm you, against a good player, and with your image which I assume is fairly aggro, I think I like raising the flop a lot more than calling. Not super relevant to this hand, but just something for you to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? raise a dry flop with a cold caller?

if im pfr that makes my life easy... he's not bluffing a cold caller, cant be semibluffing giving no draws, so he's either overplaying unconsciously top pair (unlikely for azk to do that) or has a set. bluff frequency is so low.

I like azk's flop play alot.

then again, I see what you mean; the pfr sees how dry the board is, and says, "why the hell would he fastplay a set here, obviously he doesn't have a set, Im going to check call the rest of my stack because he's bluffing."

Im not really sure what to say now.

[wdeadwyler]

I would also contend that if 22 is even in his hand range it is in there a very small portion of the time.

[wdeadwyler]

When I look at his turn cold call I am very sure I have lost the hand. AQ and 22 look unlikely, so now we are left with QQ, AA as being the most likely hands for him to have. However, I doubt I could ever find a fold on the river here getting around 3.4-1. I think if I sat down and crunched numbers and reads I could calculate that a fold was correct but there is no way in hell I would ever do so in the heat of the moment. I think if you paid this off everytime this situation occured you would not lose much money.

[ALL1N]

What non-set non-AQ hand could he be putting you on here?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
he's not bluffing a cold caller

[/ QUOTE ]

ew.

[mgsimpleton]

all i have to say is

when you cold call on Q72r after a cold caller you have a set

flawless knows this on the turn and doesn't give a crap. he also wants the other dude to come along for a joyride.

he has AA.

that being said i would donk off the rest of my stack with those odds.

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]
all i have to say is

when you cold call on Q72r after a cold caller you have a set

flawless knows this on the turn and doesn't give a crap. he also wants the other dude to come along for a joyride.

he has AA.

that being said i would donk off the rest of my stack with those odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, she summed up my post perfectly

[flawless_victory]

-the player in between the two of us is very bad... he is a fish in this game. hes not retarded... hed prob be a winner in 2/4, but he was one of the worst players at the table 4sure. that is imprtant.
-i had about 5hands in a row on this table and at leats half of the pots for the last 2 orbits... not sure how much ari noticed/remembers as he is fvcking 7tabling... i had been losing on this table as well... one round ago, i had like 3.4, b4 this hand i had to reload a bit... all that without hardly seeing a turn card (yay).
-22 is a play for me here (preflop), ditto AQo.

[AZK]

but you don't push riv with AQ....right?

[mgsimpleton]

you don't think turn AQ is an easy muck? if not well then no estamos de acuerdo as they say here.

[Double Down]

I don't know flawless that well, but I don't think that QQ is that likely. Would he really bet the pot on the flop with the nuts on a Q72 board? With the way that the rest of the action is on the other streets, he's got to have either AQ or AA, with AA looking a little more likely. I'm thinking he'd check the turn because he knows there's a decent chance you have set and he figures if he does have you beat, you won't call any hand that you're losing with, like KQ so he'd might as well let you bet and hope for the best. AA does seem more likely, but statistically, there are 9 AQ's and only 3 AA's, so I think you gotta take your chances considering the size of the pot. But I definitely don't think he has a set of queens.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
-the player in between the two of us is very bad... he is a fish in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I puke and call the river.

[Danenania]

I'm not much of a NL player but I'm confused about why everyone is stating that flawless wouldn't play AQ like this because it's clear AZK has a set after his flop call, but then saying AZK should still call the river because he's getting 3.5 to 1. Is this a spot where flawless could possibly be bluffing? It doesn't seem like he could expect AZK to fold a set 1 in 3.5 times (I guess he would need even better odds since he would have had to call the turn with a bluff in mind). Maybe 22 would fold? Just wondering after reading all the replies why it isn't a pretty easy river fold for AZK. I guess we want to allow for the times that flawless might make a mistake and make a bad push with something like AQ or a set of deuces, not realizing AZK's flop call is always a set?

[Double Down]

After looking at the hand, you could argue that hero would have played this hand the exact same way if he had AQ. Flop comes q72, hero would call the flop bet, raise the turn when the ace hit, and call an allin on the river. Because of that, the villain could very well have 22.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not much of a NL player but I'm confused about why everyone is stating that flawless wouldn't play AQ like this because it's clear AZK has a set after his flop call, but then saying AZK should still call the river because he's getting 3.5 to 1. Is this a spot where flawless could possibly be bluffing? It doesn't seem like he could expect AZK to fold a set 1 in 3.5 times (I guess he would need even better odds since he would have had to call the turn with a bluff in mind). Maybe 22 would fold? Just wondering after reading all the replies why it isn't a pretty easy river fold for AZK. I guess we want to allow for the times that flawless might make a mistake and make a bad push with something like AQ or a set of deuces, not realizing AZK's flop call is always a set?

[/ QUOTE ]
ppl are taking into account that i play pretty effing good!
(this may or may not be the case depending, haha)

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
After looking at the hand, you could argue that hero would have played this hand the exact same way if he had AQ. Flop comes q72, hero would call the flop bet, raise the turn when the ace hit, and call an allin on the river. Because of that, the villain could very well have 22.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is a 100% true story.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
After looking at the hand, you could argue that hero would have played this hand the exact same way if he had AQ. Flop comes q72, hero would call the flop bet, raise the turn when the ace hit, and call an allin on the river. Because of that, the villain could very well have 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, thanks. Makes more sense now. Still though if flawless has 22, can he expect AZK to call his river push with AQ? I mean here we are debating a call with 77...

[psuasskicker]

really? raise a dry flop with a cold caller?

Yeah, I actually think AZK's play is the most telling piece of this hand. He cold called that dry a flop after another cold caller, then raised a turn bet. What else can he possibly have other than a sandbagged set? AQ? Maybe AQ, but I think a solid player is FAR more likely to have flopped a set with this sort of play.

He cold called a guy representing a sandbag, and then moved in on him on the river. The cold call is scary enough that some people may check the river behind, since the only possible range is AA/QQ/22/AQ with a heavy weight toward AA/QQ. If AZK was truly sandbagging a monster, it's highly likely he'll call the river with it, which is an effective way to get all the money in there without tipping your hand on the turn.

I don't know flawless that well, but I don't think that QQ is that likely. Would he really bet the pot on the flop with the nuts on a Q72 board?

This is exactly why many people do. Who puts him on top set when he bets out? I'm not saying that's what he has, but I'm saying that I know a lot of people - myself included - that are fine fastplaying top set on a dry board.

Especially with his note that MP2 is a mediocre/bad player. He'll give action with a lot of hands.

After looking at the hand, you could argue that hero would have played this hand the exact same way if he had AQ. Flop comes q72, hero would call the flop bet, raise the turn when the ace hit, and call an allin on the river. Because of that, the villain could very well have 22.

Yeah, but it discounts AQ. I think if this is the logic you can call getting 3.4 to 1 odds. But it's still ugly. I think you see AA/QQ flipped more often than 22, although the argument for 22 is that it's easier to fastplay the flop with a Q out there for someone else to have hit.

- C -

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know flawless that well, but I don't think that QQ is that likely. Would he really bet the pot on the flop with the nuts on a Q72 board?

This is exactly why many people do. Who puts him on top set when he bets out? I'm not saying that's what he has, but I'm saying that I know a lot of people - myself included - that are fine fastplaying top set on a dry board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just an interjection here, because too many people are going to go ga-ga over fastplaying on dry boards... People dont play a hand slow on a dry flop for deception sake, they do it because bayes theorem wise they literally will never get action... because... unless they're up vs a monster (such as set vs set) where all the money will go in, there aren't any marginal hands to look them up!

If I have QQ on Q 7 2r, what can possibly call me? Perhaps a sheriff with mid pair or underpair, but the % of getting true value out of those hands is low. If they have 77 or 22 I will stack them, unless I literally show them my hand.

The other corollary is sometimes big hands dont win big pots. It's a sad truth. I try to force my big hands into big pots. It's not always to be; sometimes shooting for more consistant smaller pots with these monsters is the way to earn max value...

~~~

I think this is just one of those hands which if you really analyze the patterns and players, it's possible to get away from it, but in the heat of battle, AZK has a set and sets win big pots, you have a great price, even very good players (like flawless) are prone to overplaying or pulling a donk move.

I call, smash my computer ((again)) when I run into set vs set, buy myself a new one, reload.

[psuasskicker]

People dont play a hand slow on a dry flop for deception sake, they do it because bayes theorem wise they literally will never get action... because... unless they're up vs a monster (such as set vs set) where all the money will go in, there aren't any marginal hands to look them up!

I know this and I don't think you're implying I don't, but if you're a LAG that pushes action I don't think fastplaying top set on a dry board is a bad option at all. I think it's extremely important to take into account what type of player you are, and I'm a good example.

When I play, I play pretty LAG. Not overly so, but I'm around a 35/15 though my sessions can range from 50/30 to 10/5 depending on my mood and table composition.

But one thing's for certain. When I bet out on a flop, I'm always betting more than what's in the pot; and when I'm the last person to stick in a raise before the flop, I bet out 95% of the time or more. The only times I don't:
- I've flopped a monster with a crippled deck against opponents that do not think.
- I've flopped garbage on a scary board with several people also seeing the flop.

Because of this, if I'm playing someone that's thinking at all, my checking that board is going to draw a lot more suspicion than my betting out. The problem with betting there, for me, isn't that no one can have a hand strong enough to continue. It's that if they don't have a hand strong enough to continue when I bet, the ONLY way I get more money in the pot is if someone decides to try to bluff at me. And when I've suddenly checked in a situation where I almost always bet, against someone capable of thinking through that logic, that's extremely unlikely.

Now, with all of that said, if you don't make continuation bets with near the frequency that I do when you're the last aggro PF, then sandbagging top set makes tons of sense.

I don't know flawless enough to say which is the case. Perhaps he can clarify?

- C -

It's gotta be AQ, maybe 22. Tough hand, but an easy call on the river for 777. he's ahead way too much of the time to lay down here. strange play on the river though.

[mgsimpleton]

...did you read the thread?

what did i miss and/or screw up...

[AZK]

that against certain players you are not "ahead most of the time". I think this is one of those situations, flawless is not trying to bluff me on the river after the flop and turn action.

Ah, so basically he can only hold AA, QQ, 22, or AQ.

So it's 50-50 you're ahead?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, so basically he can only hold AA, QQ, 22, or AQ.

So it's 50-50 you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]oh tex...
that is funny.
how much time have you spent reading this forum?

hint: if aforemetioned hands are equally likely he is better than even money... do you see why?

[etizzle]

but we beat 2/4 hands! thats 50% isnt it?

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
but we beat 2/4 hands! thats 50% isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 combos of AA, QQ, 22
9 combos of AQ

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but we beat 2/4 hands! thats 50% isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 combos of AA, QQ, 22
9 combos of AQ

[/ QUOTE ]come on.

[Huskiez]

You're going to have to help me out here.

AsAc, AsAh, AcAh (likewise for QQ and 22)
AsQc, AsQh, AsQs, AcQc, AcQh, AcQs, AhQc, AhQh, AhQs

Or was it something different altogether?

[BobboFitos]

You have the right idea but wrong approach.

Flawless is hinting/saying he would not play some of those hands (AQ, possibly 22) like that, leaving only winners, or atleast a strong proportion.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Still though if flawless has 22, can he expect AZK to call his river push with AQ? I mean here we are debating a call with 77

[/ QUOTE ]

continue your logic through. his bet will either get 77 or aq to fold whichever the other player holds or his bet will get paid off by aq or 22. it's somewhat unlikely the worst case happens, that the other player seperates these hands in his mind and would fold aq yet call 77.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
You have the right idea but wrong approach.

Flawless is hinting/saying he would not play some of those hands (AQ, possibly 22) like that, leaving only winners, or atleast a strong proportion.

[/ QUOTE ]nononno
im saying etizzle and i already know this... come on! you respond to etizzle to tell him how many combos of each hand? WTF. he knows.

[Huskiez]

I agree with that but he said earlier

[ QUOTE ]
hint: if aforemetioned hands are equally likely he is better than even money... do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm explaining this part which etizzle was asking about. Assumption is that they are equally likely.

Maybe flawless is talking about the dead money in the pot. Who knows.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have the right idea but wrong approach.

Flawless is hinting/saying he would not play some of those hands (AQ, possibly 22) like that, leaving only winners, or atleast a strong proportion.

[/ QUOTE ]nononno
im saying etizzle and i already know this... come on! you respond to etizzle to tell him how many combos of each hand? WTF. he knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif ok I am confused now.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
nononno
im saying etizzle and i already know this... come on! you respond to etizzle to tell him how many combos of each hand? WTF. he knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, I'm not so sure after his response of

[ QUOTE ]
but we beat 2/4 hands! thats 50% isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless that was sarcasm.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have the right idea but wrong approach.

Flawless is hinting/saying he would not play some of those hands (AQ, possibly 22) like that, leaving only winners, or atleast a strong proportion.

[/ QUOTE ]nononno
im saying etizzle and i already know this... come on! you respond to etizzle to tell him how many combos of each hand? WTF. he knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif ok I am confused now.

[/ QUOTE ]etizzle understands there are more combos of AQ that AA... he was KIDDING.
this is getting wierd...

yeah cuz of the dead money in the pot.

you guys even confuse eachother.

LOL.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah cuz of the dead money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOLOL.
NO!
that is a good reason to strongly consider calling, but has nothing to do w/ what i was telling you! poor tex...
if my range is any AQ/AA/QQ/22, then AZK beats 12 hands, loses to six. he is a 2:1 fav! YAAAY!

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys even confuse eachother.

LOL.

[/ QUOTE ]i dont get confused.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys even confuse eachother.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read that etizzle was responding to flawless's response to TxRedMan. I thought etizzle was the original one who said they are 50-50. Turns out it was TxRedMan. Should have been responding to him.

Whatever.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
if my range is any AQ/AA/QQ/22, then AZK beats 12 hands, loses to six. he is a 2:1 fav! YAAAY!

[/ QUOTE ]

So why respond "come on" when I laid that out? Because I should have been responding to TxRedMan and not etizzle?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah cuz of the dead money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOLOL.
NO!
that is a good reason to strongly consider calling, but has nothing to do w/ what i was telling you! poor tex...
if my range is any AQ/AA/QQ/22, then AZK beats 12 hands, loses to six. he is a 2:1 fav! YAAAY!

[/ QUOTE ]

so anyway. would you have played AQ like this?

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
He asked me to post this. I'll post my thoughts later, to hear what you guys say, but there should be something glaring at you.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($2327)
UTG+1 ($2004)
UTG+2 ($2489)
<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($2000)</font>
MP2 ($2769.50)
MP3 ($941)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($2191)</font>
Button ($2225)
SB ($3693.70)
BB ($2585)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $65</font>, MP2 calls $65, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $65, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($225) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $170</font>, MP2 calls $170, Hero calls $170.

Turn: ($735) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $225</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $750</font>, MP1 calls $750, MP2 folds.

River: ($2460) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 calls $1015 (All-In), Hero calls $1015.

Final Pot: $4490

[/ QUOTE ]

Call and go broke getting 3.5-1. If you had another $1500 you could get away yes?

because of the combinations of each hand, i understand that, but explain to me how you count AsQd differnetly than AcQh

seriously, enlighten me, i want to understand the concept.

thanks


tex

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if my range is any AQ/AA/QQ/22, then AZK beats 12 hands, loses to six. he is a 2:1 fav! YAAAY!

[/ QUOTE ]

So why respond "come on" when I laid that out? Because I should have been responding to TxRedMan and not etizzle?

[/ QUOTE ]i has assumed you thought etiz was serious... i wasnt trying to be a dick... just saying, fix the sarcasm detector man! he is a frequent poster in all the strategy forums... he knows there are more AQ than AA.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
because of the combinations of each hand, i understand that, but explain to me how you count AsQd differnetly than AcQh

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they are different cards.

They wouldn't tie on a board of 7s Ks 4s 3s Js.

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]

so anyway. would you have played AQ like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked him this like 10 times in this thread and in conversation, dumbass never seems to hear the question...

[flawless_victory]

i did have AQ.

[Wayfare]

[ QUOTE ]
i did have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did you put hero on? Not AK or lower two pair...I can't think of one hand that a villan might have that you beat other than pure air on the turn.

What hands that hero might have would behave that way and call a river push? If you were determined to go the felt, wouldn't you do better with check-calling the river to induce a bluff?

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still though if flawless has 22, can he expect AZK to call his river push with AQ? I mean here we are debating a call with 77

[/ QUOTE ]

continue your logic through. his bet will either get 77 or aq to fold whichever the other player holds or his bet will get paid off by aq or 22. it's somewhat unlikely the worst case happens, that the other player seperates these hands in his mind and would fold aq yet call 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I get where you are going and that's a good point to consider. Still your worst case scenario doesn't seem too unlikely to me. Flawless can't really be bluffing. He can't have worse than AQ. So AZK with AQ has to think he's looking at a split at best. Whereas with 77 he's got the prospect of both a more likely AQ and a 22 to talk himself into a call with (like in this thread). So they seem pretty separate to me. Will flawless run through all of this when he has 22 though? Don't know. Perhaps he would want to make more of a blocking/value bet that AQ could call but 77/QQ couldn't raise?

Btw, I apologize if I am way way off or if none of this makes sense. I'm know I'm in over my head though I do love a chance to try to discuss some concepts.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still though if flawless has 22, can he expect AZK to call his river push with AQ? I mean here we are debating a call with 77

[/ QUOTE ]

continue your logic through. his bet will either get 77 or aq to fold whichever the other player holds or his bet will get paid off by aq or 22. it's somewhat unlikely the worst case happens, that the other player seperates these hands in his mind and would fold aq yet call 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I get where you are going and that's a good point to consider. Still your worst case scenario doesn't seem too unlikely to me. Flawless can't really be bluffing. He can't have worse than AQ. So AZK with AQ has to think he's looking at a split at best. Whereas with 77 he's got the prospect of both a more likely AQ and a 22 to talk himself into a call with (like in this thread). So they seem pretty separate to me. Will flawless run through all of this when he has 22 though? Don't know. Perhaps he would want to make more of a blocking/value bet that AQ could call but 77/QQ couldn't raise?

Btw, I apologize if I am way way off or if none of this makes sense. I'm know I'm in over my head though I do love a chance to try to discuss some concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, there in this case AQ and 77 are pretty different because there are a few hands inbetween them that the other player may have. This hand isn't the best example for a river bet that can have two advantages, either fold a better hand or call from a worse, but it comes up.


Yet, considering all this in 20 seconds at the table though i'd be surprised if the large majority of better than average players act differently with AQ than they do with 77.

[mgsimpleton]

whoa guys i'm sorry. listen i'm not done reading these inane responses but i'll never again leave the forum for 4 hours. i do it and one line of sarcasm confuses everyone else. etizzle look what you've done. (p.s. i know intonation of voice is hard to get online but one hint is that etizzle ain't the kind of guy to genuinely use the exclamation point, i feel. i got that right etizz?)

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
i did have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so anyway. would you have played AQ like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've asked him this like 10 times in this thread and in conversation, dumbass never seems to hear the question...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i did have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not really.

[mgsimpleton]

good point. flawless = caught. unless azk frequently misuses verb tenses.

[Trix]

Is the riverbet a bluff ?

[etizzle]

ha, i didnt see all this until just now. your analysis is on the money.

[Ulysses]

I raise the flop here. But, overall, I'm not sure why you posted this hand. After calling the flop, you have to raise that turn and get some money in there. Whether he cr pushes on the turn or pushes the river like that, I don't think it really matters. I don't see you ever folding 77 given that price. You say, ugh, hope he has AQ or 22, and call.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop here. But, overall, I'm not sure why you posted this hand. After calling the flop, you have to raise that turn and get some money in there. Whether he cr pushes on the turn or pushes the river like that, I don't think it really matters. I don't see you ever folding 77 given that price. You say, ugh, hope he has AQ or 22, and call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this, but with regard to the river play, would you fold if the effective stack is $2,500 instead of $1,000?

ML4L

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop here. But, overall, I'm not sure why you posted this hand. After calling the flop, you have to raise that turn and get some money in there. Whether he cr pushes on the turn or pushes the river like that, I don't think it really matters. I don't see you ever folding 77 given that price. You say, ugh, hope he has AQ or 22, and call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this, but with regard to the river play, would you fold if the effective stack is $2,500 instead of $1,000?

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

If we got to the river in this manner, against a lot of opponents, yes. However, with stacks that deep, I'd almost always raise the flop and things would of course develop differently.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i did have AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[/ QUOTE ]
naw.

i had AAA.
i obviously cldcalled the turn because i wanted to give to the fish a chance to make a mistake... i knew AZK had to have 77/22 here, so i figured i was gauranteed to bust him no matter what.
in retrospect, a river laydown seems very possible here... hes basically never gonna win this pot.

do you have any results taht you can post??? im dying to know

[JKratzer]

[ QUOTE ]
a river laydown seems very possible here... hes basically never gonna win this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though he called, do you still feel you played this fine? I personally couldn't get away from his hand, and most people advocated a crying call, but could you have played this river (or previous streets) to make sure he doesn't get away?

Just curious,
JKratzer

[lapoker17]

Hey Flawless - If he raises that flop, as a few of us advocated, how often is all the money going in right there with you in this spot?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Flawless - If he raises that flop, as a few of us advocated, how often is all the money going in right there with you in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]im really not sure... i would strongly consider pushing if he raised the flop... ill tell u that.

[EverettKings]

What exactly does calling the turn/pushing the river achieve? I.e. what hands pay you off on a river but not a turn push? What if a diamond falls on the river? What hands exactly did you think you were up against?

I just don't see much changing (in a good way, for you) from the turn to the river. Maybe if you thought he was running a bluff or had a marginal hand or something you could check the river to him and see if he thinks he can value bet or fire the last barrel. I donno, wanna see your thinking here.

Everett

PS For the OP I raise the flop here almost every time. A flop cold call and a turn raise sets off red flags in my mind. Raising the flop starts building the pot immediately without detailing the strength of your hand.

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly does calling the turn/pushing the river achieve?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i obviously cldcalled the turn because i wanted to give to the fish a chance to make a mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What exactly does calling the turn/pushing the river achieve?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i obviously cldcalled the turn because i wanted to give to the fish a chance to make a mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, I read that. What kind of mistake exactly? I take it then that he didnt know that he was up against AZK?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What exactly does calling the turn/pushing the river achieve?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i obviously cldcalled the turn because i wanted to give to the fish a chance to make a mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, I read that. What kind of mistake exactly? I take it then that he didnt know that he was up against AZK?

[/ QUOTE ]
THREE WAY ACTION.