Nut Flush Draws

I saw a post that had this exact situation, but the Ax was not suited. I thought it would be a good time to discuss nut flush draws.

This type of hand often gives me fits and I was hoping to get some insight into how others are approaching this type of hand. i will review my hand histories and try to find a particular situation that illustrates it well, but in the meantime, let me try to explain.

When you have Ax suited, or even unsuited for that matter, but lets assume suited. If you get 4 to the flush on the flop, how do you approach this hand? Are nut flush draws worth a pot sized raise? Worth going bust over? I know there are many factors that determine how you play this hand. so feel free to define them as you explain your thought process. if this question is too vague, let me know and we can add additional parameters to further define the situation.

I find this to be one of the more tempting/expensive hands. If it hits, its a monster, but when it doesnt, you sure are stuck with a whole lotta nuttin. Thoughts...

[Scuba Chuck]

You need to be a little more specific in your example:

Example A: You limp from MP with A3s

Example B: You raise pf from MP with AKs, and you flop all unders with the nut flush draw.

Both have very different strategies, and in particular, it's often agreed upon that playing for draws in a SNG is a waste of time in the more shallow stacked games.

If you are playing them in a little deeper game, I might consider peeling one off if the odds were reasonable to see just one more card. Then I'd make a turn decision, which is often to fold.

[Hendricks433]

I have trouble with this hand also. Well if you get your chips in the pot I think the only way you really want to do that is by semi bluffing and raising. correct? Also it seems like it would be a good time to comeover the top of someone later near the bubble or so and pick up a nice pot. Is this thinking correct?

[Bigwig]

I really don't mean to be cryptic, but, it depends. On the pot size, your position, the action in front of you, chip stacks, etc. I will often flat out fold these hands to action sometimes. Sometimes, I will call all-ins. Sometimes, I will bet, or reraise.

[tom441lbk]

fold preflop?, if i get a "good time to see the flop position" and i end up in this position postflop, i'm trying to see it as cheaply as possible looking for good odds and implied odds(payoff donkeys) to draw to it.

I knew there would be a problem with defining the hand because each situation is going to be very different. But, I really would like to read some discussion about it. Please feel free to define parameters as you see fit and roll with it. Or, i could start a few threads with different situations and we can discuss them in more depth with more defined parameters.

see this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3762604&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) for a couple of divergent thoughts.

Reading this thread is why i posted this...thanks for the link.

[pineapple888]

Don't chase against significant bets (1/2 pot or more). Take the lead or get out.

Poor implied odds because it's obvious when you hit.

Great semi-bluff hand with the right size stacks. Push if you have good FE because you guarantee yourself seeing two more cards to the nuts if he calls.

Never play if the board is paired because chances of a boat are too high. ("Never draw dead").

That's all I can say without more specific hands.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have trouble with this hand also. Well if you get your chips in the pot I think the only way you really want to do that is by semi bluffing and raising. correct? Also it seems like it would be a good time to comeover the top of someone later near the bubble or so and pick up a nice pot. Is this thinking correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, except there is some flaw in your thinking. You will need to believe you have some significant FE to make this mathematically correct, which is why I would prefer a differnt line. There is an exception of course.

Let's make an example. Assume in both hands, you have: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Flop 1: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Flop 2: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

There are some distinct differences between these hands. First, let's assume you're up against KQo.

Hand 1: As3s has 50.4% card equity.
Hand 2: As3s has 45% card equity.

Now let's assume you're up against KTo (2pair)

Hand 1: As3s has 48% card equity
Hand 2: As3s has 36% card equity

Now let's assume you're up against QJo

Hand 1: As3s has 70% card equity
Hand 2: As3s has 68% card equity

And assuming you're up against a set, like TT.

Hand 1: As3s has 30% card equity
Hand 2: As3s has 26% card equity

Finally, let's assume this represents the range of hands you're up against.

Hand 1: As3s has 56% card equity
Hand 2: As3s has 50% card equity

A lot of work. Perhaps this sheds some light.

[Hendricks433]

Thanks for the example. I was speaking in general. Theres times I would throw it away. And times I would push.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the example. I was speaking in general. Theres times I would throw it away. And times I would push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thus the reason why you can't get an answer.

[Hendricks433]

Im not the OP. I was just anwsering in general to the generalized question from the OP /images/graemlins/wink.gif