QQ Under Fire on the turn

[Barry]

Good 15/30 Party table. This is my 5th orbit. Not sure about my image at the moment. I have open raised a few times and been 3 bet by a well known 2+2'er and I have completely missed the flop and check folded the flop. However, I also played a KK strongly and beat said 2+2'ers AJ. I have been getting decent starting cards and have been involved in more pots than normal. I am not playing under my 2+2 name, but other 2+2'ers may know me by this screen name. Anyway, I'm running good and am up about 15BB at the time.

UTG+1 (let's call him loose PF, avg post)and EP (let's call him loose, passive, calling stationish) limp, I raise from the HJ w/ Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2+2'er 3 bets me again from the CO. Button and blinds fold, limpers call, and I call. 4 to the flop w/ 13ish SB's

Flop is T /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG+1 checks, EP bets, I raise, 2+2'er 3 bets, UTG+1 cold calls 3, EP calls, I 4 bet, the other 3 call. Still 4 to the turn w/ 15ish BB's in the pot

Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me, I bet, 2+2'er gives up and folds, UTG+1 now c/r, EP now calls 2 cold.

Action is back on me.

Anyone like a PF cap here?
Anyone think I overplayed my hand on the flop?
Which of my 3 choices do you like?

[toss]

I'd cap PF and collect money from the limpers. I don't think you misplayed the flop the way you played PF. Call down.

[W. Deranged]

I don't see anything you can do but go to showdown. The pot is ginormous. I'm not fearing overpairs because of the pre-flop action. Closing the action on the turn I'm happy to call and try to see a showdown for 2 more BB. You only need to win like 10% of the time to merit showing down. You might well have a bunch of outs against 2 pair. You have outs to draw to your set here on the turn, there's no flush to worry about, I'm not too concerned about being counterfeited by a J9 draw, and so on. Once the river comes I can't see myself folding unless it's two back to me.

[W. Deranged]

Oh, yeah, and I'm capping this pre-flop without a thought. The limpers certainly have hands that you have crushed.

[hobbsmann]

The answers to your first two questions are interrelated and given you have underrepresented your hand by not capping preflop capping the flop is just right IMO. I think it changes if you cap preflop and the action proceeds in a similar fashion then I think calling CO's 3-bet would be best.

As for the turn action I think I like calling with the plan to not overcall on the river UI (in which you have 2 Q outs and probably have the remaining 2s and 4s as outs to counterfeit a two pair hand).

Thinking about it more EP cold calling two means he has a T or worse the majority of time so him calling in between you and UTG1 doesn't mean much. I'm not sure about the river now as given the pot size an overplayed KT/AT is enough of a possibility to warrant a call right?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
The answers to your first two questions are interrelated and given you have underrepresented your hand by not capping preflop capping the flop is just right IMO. I think it changes if you cap preflop and the action proceeds in a similar fashion then I think calling CO's 3-bet would be best.

As for the turn action I think I like calling with the plan to not overcall on the river UI (in which you have 2 Q outs and probably have the remaining 2s and 4s as outs to counterfeit a two pair hand).

Thinking about it more EP cold calling two means he has a T or worse the majority of time so him calling in between you and UTG1 doesn't mean much. I'm not sure about the river now as given the pot size an overplayed KT/AT is enough of a possibility to warrant a call right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't think the difference between calling and overcalling the river is significant here.

If he's calling two cold on the turn with a draw, he'll fold the river if missed and probably raise if hit.

If he's calling two with some made hand and not showing any aggression, unless he's a real passive type he probably has no better than a T. I don't see him turning over bottom set or something like that.

So if I'm calling I'm overcalling. The intermediate player is winning this almost never (like 5% maybe) unless he raises, in my opinion.

[hobbsmann]

Yeah my last paragraph kind of got into this as I re-read the description of the MP being a calling station. Either way I think calling the turn is clearly the best option with the plan to showdown on the river the majority of the time (the exception being when the action goes bet, raise...).

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my last paragraph kind of got into this as I re-read the description of the MP being a calling station. Either way I think calling the turn is clearly the best option with the plan to showdown on the river the majority of the time (the exception being when the action goes bet, raise...).

[/ QUOTE ]

Next time we go to Foxwoods we should try to meet Barry.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my last paragraph kind of got into this as I re-read the description of the MP being a calling station. Either way I think calling the turn is clearly the best option with the plan to showdown on the river the majority of the time (the exception being when the action goes bet, raise...).

[/ QUOTE ]

Next time we go to Foxwoods we should try to meet Barry.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking this as well. Do you want to go on Saturday?

[Barry]

I'm there quite a bit, usually on Wed and Thur but also now and again on the weekends, more now that the summer is over. PM me when you are heading down and we can exchange cell #'s and meet up. BTW, I live in Sudbury and maybe we can get a home game going so I can properly break in my new poker table.

[shant]

What hand did that 2+2er have and play well? JJ?

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm there quite a bit, usually on Wed and Thur but also now and again on the weekends, more now that the summer is over. PM me when you are heading down and we can exchange cell #'s and meet up. BTW, I live in Sudbury and maybe we can get a home game going so I can properly break in my new poker table.

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys should post in here when it happens so I can have a chance to say hi. I played the 20/40 game for the first time saturday night and it was quite a ride.

[Barry]

Well I will be there tomorrow night (Wed). I may very well be down there on Sunday as well.

[Evan]

You give up SOOOO much value by not capping here in a 4 way pot. I really, really hate just calling the 3 bet, especially since the 2+2er has been 3 betting you a lot (even though this isn't a spot where you'd expect him to 3 bet light).

I'd call for my 2 outter (getting 20:1 and good enough implied odds). Fold the river unimproved (I'd fold if the board pairs too).

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
you have 2 Q outs and probably have the remaining 2s and 4s as outs to counterfeit a two pair hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not.

[felix83]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call for my 2 outter (getting 20:1 and good enough implied odds). Fold the river unimproved (I'd fold if the board pairs too).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. UTG+1 called 3 cold on the flop and c/red the turn. That SCREAMS set. Even with the size of the pot I don't think you'll win enough to make a river call worth it unimproved.

[BigEndian]

Were his 3-bets light? For instance, did he 3-bet you with AJ previously? If so, this is a certain cap in my book PF. If not, with the meat in the middle, I still like capping. Though if you felt he definitely had a premium hand in this instance, I understand the call.

On the flop, I think this is perfect.

On the turn, I think 3-betting is bad poker. You have to call for set value. The question is, can you find a fold on the river? I can't.

- Jim

[Barry]

The 2+2'er had been 3 betting me quite a bit in the 5 orbits, this may have been the 4th time, so my gut reaction was to cap PF. But I had raised two limpers so, I thought that he wouldn't 3 bet light here and I just wimped out and called. I should have capped; that was clearly my worst decision in the hand.

I obviously didn't fold, but 3 betting was out of the question. I had outs against a T8 or was still ahead of something like AT that he decided to get frisky with, so I called. Also, something seemed wierd about the cold call on the flop, why not cap with a set?

The river was K /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG+1 bet, EP folded, it was a huge pot and I must be good 5% of the time here, so I called.

He turned over 97 /images/graemlins/club.gif for 9 high and MHIG.

He called 3 cold on the flop with a back door gutshot SF draw and semibluffed the turn when he hit his OESD. I told you it was a good table.

I don't know what the 2+2'er had, if he remembers the hand he might want to say, but he might have had something like 99, JJ or AK/AQ suited in /images/graemlins/heart.gif's or /images/graemlins/spade.gif's

[Evan]

Um, wow? I guess it's time for a new note:

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 (let's call him loose PF, avg post)

[/ QUOTE ]

[WillMagic]

Cap preflop, first and foremost. Your pot equity edge is pretty significant.

Flop is good.

I don't think I can let this go on the turn. I'm calling down.

Will