I need a mentor (lc)

[PinkSteel]

I'm in a bad rut, and one of you guys has to talk me out of it.

The brief history: Started playing online about a year ago, bought the books, read most of them, invested $100, donked around everywhere on Party -- SNGs, cash limit & NL. Eventually put in $600 total, discovered 2+2 after 4 or 5 months, focused on cash NL, turned the game around, and slowly but surely, over about 5 months, won month after month and built a roll to $1100.

Then I took a shot at $50s and went on some weird kind of long-term tilt, doing just plain dumb, undisciplined stuff, back through the $25s and all the way down to $300 in the account. You know -- "call his raise anyway, see what he has, damn he had it", etc.

I have the grey matter to beat the game, but I often lack the patience. My day job earns me a comfortable six figures, so it's hard to take the dollars seriously at $25NL, which is definitely part of my problem. But I just can't buy the "move up now, you'll take the game more seriously" line, for obvious reasons (i.e., what if, in fact, I SUCK?). The day job is also hard work, and I have a family to support, so time is limited.

But if I'm going to play this damn game, I demand of myself that I play it successfully.

So what do I do next? I've been playing some 1-table SNGs again, and beating the snot out of them -- maybe luck, but what I've learned on this forum those guys don't seem to have any clue about. Should I just shift gears back to SNG until I've rebuilt the roll?

Somebody take me under their wing, give me some good advice, smack me around. Thanks for any input.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Don't tilt.

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of your posts here have the rare quality of being not only well-reasoned, but also pragmatic and directly applicable.

This one is somewhat less helpful....

[TheWorstPlayer]

Reduce variance.

[Emmitt2222]

if you have AIM and want to we can chat post your name or PM me, I dont have a ton of expeirence at NL but I have played a lot of limit and am working on learning the game. Talking with others who are learning isn't what you asked for, but I know from experience that it helps.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in a bad rut, and one of you guys has to talk me out of it. ...
Then I took a shot at $50s and went on some weird kind of long-term tilt, doing just plain dumb, undisciplined stuff, back through the $25s and all the way down to $300 in the account. You know -- "call his raise anyway, see what he has, damn he had it", etc.

I have the grey matter to beat the game, but I often lack the patience. My day job earns me a comfortable six figures, so it's hard to take the dollars seriously at $25NL, which is definitely part of my problem. But I just can't buy the "move up now, you'll take the game more seriously" line, for obvious reasons (i.e., what if, in fact, I SUCK?). The day job is also hard work, and I have a family to support, so time is limited....

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you've already identified some things you need to work on. If you can't take 25NL seriously, then you're definitely not playing with scared money (that should help you win). If you can't consistently beat 25NL, moving up to 50 or 100NL won't make things easier. It sounds like you have a problem with patience. Don't expect every session to be a winning one. All you can do is make the best decisions. Remember that even if you do make the correct decisions, you are not always going to win money. Forgot about money lost. Make the correct decisions and everything else will work itself out.

[Hoopster81]

How many tables do/can you play?

[PinkSteel]

I've been 4-tabling lately, up from 3-tabling. I get too bored playing a single table. subzero is right, patience is definitely at the core of this....

I'm currently building a roll myself to play at the $25 NL level. I've been bonuswhoring to speed up the process, but I've been coming out positive at every site I've played. (3 boss sites, Bet365)

If anyone else is interested, I'd also like to have chats/discussions with anyone regarding the game. I'd like to think I'm decent, but I know I definitely have a lot to learn.

Hit me up, AIM: DDellaRocco

[The_Bends]

Do you have pokertracker? If not, get it now. Its about $50 and is more than worth the money. As well as getting stats on your opponents you gain the ability to easily review your play and to look where the leaks are.

[Hoopster81]

I guarantee if you start playing 8 tables all problems will be solved (just as long as you can click that fast).

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have pokertracker? If not, get it now. Its about $50 and is more than worth the money. As well as getting stats on your opponents you gain the ability to easily review your play and to look where the leaks are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, PT was an easy buy and is indispensible.

I also subscribed to PokerEDGE for a while. It was useful in ferreting out good tables without having to build up player history in PT. But apparently Party doesn't like PokerEDGE now, and PT data is pretty darn good, so I let PokerEDGE go.

I should probably go back to PT and look at the last couple of months of data; haven't done that lately.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

I should probably go back to PT and look at the last couple of months of data; haven't done that lately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instead of playing your next one or two sessions, do a Pokertracker review of the hands that you won/lost the most money with over your last 10-15 sessions. You should see some trends that will help you identify leaks and strengths.

For example, I now avoid JT like the plague. I have lost a lot of money with them and I will not play them again until I get a better game plan together. I also learned that I am a pretty darn good set miner.

[subzero]

Remember that winning players can expect 8PTBB/100 at these stakes. So if you're playing 25NL and you're only up $4 after 2 hours of play, you really should be happy. I realize adding tables can add to your win rate (as long as your play doesn't suffer too much when multi-tabling). Just don't expect to win $100 a session at these stakes. There will be times when you will win this much, but you can't expect 100+PTBB/100 all the time.

[PinkSteel]

Thanks, I'm all too aware of win rates and overall earn rates for good players. That's part of the problem -- 4-tabling 25NL and doing it well can earn me, what? $13 an hour?

And so we're back to impatience. As a very wise man once said to me in another context: "Stop looking for a short cut. You think this way will take a long time? THIS IS the short cut."

[TheWorstPlayer]

No one says you have to start at NL25. If you have a 6 figure salary then you can probably afford to pop 1500 on Party and open up two or three tables of NL100 and get cranking. If you aren't getting your money in with the best of it, post some hands and try to see where you're going wrong. Personally, I was able to focus well at NL25 because I deposited 500 and told myself that I would never deposit again so if I lost it I was done with poker forever. Thankfully, I was able to build it up (I also cheated a bit by getting rakeback into that account and also a few HH reviews paid for into that account, but whatever). But if you dont have the patience to work it up from NL25, then just jump into NL100 or whatever. At that point, the money starts to get decent and 'worth it', IMO. And if you crush NL100 for a bit, you can move up to NL200 and NL400 where the money can actually start to make a lifestyle difference which is at least my personal goal with this stuff.

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
No one says you have to start at NL25. If you have a 6 figure salary then you can probably afford to pop 1500 on Party and open up two or three tables of NL100 and get cranking. If you aren't getting your money in with the best of it, post some hands and try to see where you're going wrong. Personally, I was able to focus well at NL25 because I deposited 500 and told myself that I would never deposit again so if I lost it I was done with poker forever. Thankfully, I was able to build it up (I also cheated a bit by getting rakeback into that account and also a few HH reviews paid for into that account, but whatever). But if you dont have the patience to work it up from NL25, then just jump into NL100 or whatever. At that point, the money starts to get decent and 'worth it', IMO. And if you crush NL100 for a bit, you can move up to NL200 and NL400 where the money can actually start to make a lifestyle difference which is at least my personal goal with this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THAT'S what I wanted to hear! Wiring it in now!

Seriously, appreciate your giving legitimacy to an option I've considered but so far rejected on the basis that if I can't beat 25s, for whatever reason, then I'm not ready for 100s. Maybe I am ready and maybe I would focus much more carefully given the stakes. I probably still won't do it, but I'll give it some serious thought.

Now I'll do what you really wish deep down I would do, I'll stop replying to my own thread. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, I'm all too aware of win rates and overall earn rates for good players. That's part of the problem -- 4-tabling 25NL and doing it well can earn me, what? $13 an hour?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just being a nit but I actually think it's closer to $8 or $10/hr.

[Leptyne]

So you demand that you play successfully? Patience and Discipline! Quit thinking about success in terms of money and think in terms of making +EV plays. If your plays are consistently +EV then you will be a long-term +EV player. A very long, slow, often boring process. Fold, fold, fold, limp-fold. Patience and discipline.

Contact BobboFitos here on 2+2.

[derick]

I make a good living too.
I also do not have all day to play the game.
So I play about 2-4 hours or so a night after work.

I am *not* a good player, but I'm better than the fish that I play with.


I found that moving from the 25NL to the 600NL helped me focus on the task at hand.


I was a very conservative safe player.
I played the 25NL for a few months and then I moved up so I could clear a bonus faster. As the due date for the bonus approached I moved up again so I could get it done in time.

I made the jump from 25NL to 600NL in one day.

I found it helped me to focus.

I have a better $ win rate at 600 NL (only 2500 600NL hands than at 25NL 10,000 hands) Most of the reason for the ease of moving up was getting hit by the deck for 1000 hands at first (121ptbb/100 win rate)

There are down sides too, you must be able to lose over $600 in a pot to an idiot.

I also found it much more fun to play 1 game of 600NL than 8 games of low limit

Has anyone else found that they played better after they moved up?

Has anyone else jumped from NL25 to NL600.


Am I an idiot for jumping so quickly?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm in a bad rut, and one of you guys has to talk me out of it. ...
Then I took a shot at $50s and went on some weird kind of long-term tilt, doing just plain dumb, undisciplined stuff, back through the $25s and all the way down to $300 in the account. You know -- "call his raise anyway, see what he has, damn he had it", etc.

I have the grey matter to beat the game, but I often lack the patience. My day job earns me a comfortable six figures, so it's hard to take the dollars seriously at $25NL, which is definitely part of my problem. But I just can't buy the "move up now, you'll take the game more seriously" line, for obvious reasons (i.e., what if, in fact, I SUCK?). The day job is also hard work, and I have a family to support, so time is limited....

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you've already identified some things you need to work on. If you can't take 25NL seriously, then you're definitely not playing with scared money (that should help you win). If you can't consistently beat 25NL, moving up to 50 or 100NL won't make things easier. It sounds like you have a problem with patience. Don't expect every session to be a winning one. All you can do is make the best decisions. Remember that even if you do make the correct decisions, you are not always going to win money. Forgot about money lost. Make the correct decisions and everything else will work itself out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best advice. From your post, it sounds like you're thinking of the money a lot. Don't. It really is true that you can't play poker well if you're thinking of the money. You have to think about poker as making decision--the right ones hopefully. Whether you're playing 25NL or 1000NL, you should be making the right decisions. It doesn't sound like you are, so that's what you should focus on. Whenever I find myself thinking about the actual money it always screws me up. My thought process: "Man, this is a hell of a nice pot. Having another $500 in my bankroll would be real nice. OK, I'll call because I want this money." Notice no thoughts about whether or not it was the right decision. Don't think about the money. Ever.

Just as a related aside, this is why bad beats don't bother me anymore: I know I played it right and he played it wrong. The thing that really affects me is putting my money in with the worst hand when I shouldn't have--making the wrong decision.

[nolvicrudie]

Been lurking for quite a while just for reading but I'm in a similar boat. I have focused primarily on bonuses as a way to practice and still make decent $$. Also, you are probably busy with work, kids, etc.; set a goal that is worthwhile. I paid for a Disney vacation for my family and I hope to pay for Christmas for everyone while maintaining enough of a roll to continue to play and learn.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
Reduce variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

GG!

[ QUOTE ]
Been lurking for quite a while just for reading but I'm in a similar boat. I have focused primarily on bonuses as a way to practice and still make decent $$. Also, you are probably busy with work, kids, etc.; set a goal that is worthwhile. I paid for a Disney vacation for my family and I hope to pay for Christmas for everyone while maintaining enough of a roll to continue to play and learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think this is terrible advice. Don't set any kind of goal other than playing your best poker--making the right decisions. Your money winnings will fluctuate from week to week and month to month. Just don't make any mistakes, especially big ones. If you never make a mistake, you'll have plenty of money.

[KKrAAAzy88s]

As much as everyone says the money shouldn't matter, in the end it really does b/c that is how we are wired.

I (now) play in the 1/2NL level and some days when I am up, let's say just as an example, it's $400 (which is two buy ins). My roommate plays .10/.25NL and will win $50 and be disappointed with the results b/c its so small comapred to what I win, but in reality it's the same. I try to explain this to him, but of course he wants to see the $400 in his bankroll too.

Same with going to the casino. I used to be scared playing $10 blackjack/craps/roulette/whatever game because $100 meant a lot to me at the time. Now, since I have a bankroll from poker $100 at the blackjack table is a lot easier to lose than it was before. Now I'd be more willing to take chances b/c "it's only $10". (*note that I only play table games for entertainment value and I'm expecting to lose it and I'm "paying" for my free double jack and coke.)

So, maybe you do need to move to a higher level where money does mean something to you and it'll help you make a better decision rather than saying "Ah, I'll just call to see what he has, it's only $XX." When someone puts you all in for a full stack that is meaningful to you it makes it tougher to just call and see what he has.

Same thing goes for those of us who play the .01/.02 games just for fun and play every hand. It may be 100bbs, but it's _only_ $2.

For Derick,
I feel like my game is a lot better since I've moved up, but I've also been working on it for a while and have since switched from FR to 6max. I also don't four table (as much) anymore and try to really focus on the situation better. Again, probably b/c I'm adverse to losing a few buy ins especially when those buy ins can pay for "a better lifestyle" like TWP said. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

patience is a virtue...

The goal should be to play correctly. That's the part you control and you can only worry about what you control. You can't blame the cards or the dealer or even the other player. You saw the cards, you know what he could have, and you made your decision. So, the goal is to play as perfectly as possible. Look at the odds. Look at the bets. Think about the play, the position, the probability. The try to make the most perfect decision possible.

However, the monetary steps are objectives by which you can measure the success of working to meet your goals. That's the key. If you set steps to get to X level, then you start sequentially planning your progress. And if you have a setback, then you have a trigger to help you make that decision as well.

[jjb108]

People play for different reasons. Some want action. Others will keep score via the BB/100 hands. Some in total dollars.

I'd watch out for real life interfering in Poker. Bad day a work could end up in bad run at the tables.

[PinkSteel]

In spite of my promise to TWP to stop posting on my own thread, I'll post one more to (hopefully) close it and say thanks for the feedback.

It became clear to me just reading replies that there were things in the last couple of months I stopped doing, things that helped me stay on my game:

1. I stopped reviewing PokerTracker for leaks, trends, etc.
2. I stopped posting hands on the boards
3. Most importantly, as everyone has said, I stopped focusing on not making mistakes, and instead started thinking about the dollars. Of course that's the natural thing to do. But as Schoonmaker says in POP, the natural thing to do in poker is to LOSE.

So I'm going to follow your advice and not sweat the bucks, just think about playing correctly, keep posting, and just see where it goes. I love playing, I'll be here for a while.

Oh, and I'm definitely going to reduce variance.

[SmackinYaUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Been lurking for quite a while just for reading but I'm in a similar boat. I have focused primarily on bonuses as a way to practice and still make decent $$. Also, you are probably busy with work, kids, etc.; set a goal that is worthwhile. I paid for a Disney vacation for my family and I hope to pay for Christmas for everyone while maintaining enough of a roll to continue to play and learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think this is terrible advice. Don't set any kind of goal other than playing your best poker--making the right decisions. Your money winnings will fluctuate from week to week and month to month. Just don't make any mistakes, especially big ones. If you never make a mistake, you'll have plenty of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Goals are a good thing if you are healthy about it. Setting a bankroll mark or a withdrawal mark helps you focus on making the best decisions because you know that constant bluffing and chasing will greatly increase the time it takes to reach the finish line.

If you compare that 50BB bet you just made to a new cd player for your disney trip and that 100bb pot you just lost to a tank of gas, then yes, its a bad thing.