JJ flop and beyond

[Chris Daddy Cool]

20/40 on party

utg openraies. utg+1 3-bets. you cap with black jacks on the button. 3 ways for 13.5 small bets.

flop comes out rags all clubs. checked to you and you bet. utg checkraises. utg+1 3-bets.

what is your plan for the rest of this hand?

[krimson]

Yikes. I'm pulled in two directions here.

1. Just fold, certainly feels like we're behind. Jc may be good for a flush draw but it could be an expensive draw to a 2nd best hand. Even when JJ is ahead there are a lot of overcards against us, and any club could screw us over.

2. If we want to continue in the hand, I think we should cap the flop in hopes of taking a free card on the turn if the turn is not beneficial.

Hard one, but I think I would do a crying fold here. Smells like u are up against at least one higher overpair and a higher club draw.

[BigEndian]

I would fold when it's 3-bet back to me if these are good players.

I also don't like the PF cap.

- Jim

[adsman]

No reads so I gather you're not playing against morons here.
19.5sb in the pot and you have to put two more in. You have position on your opponents. The question is are they willing to raise and reraise on a draw? The Turn card is going to dramatically affect your hand. With this much action it seems a given that someone is holding a high club, so your flush outs are most probably tainted.
I peel and see what comes on the Turn. If a club drops and there's a bet and a raise to me then I'm gone. If a none club drops I'm calling down. If I'm against overcards or a lower pocket then I want them to keep betting to the river. If I'm against a higher pocket pair then I lose the least possible.
This is a very tricky situation though, as you're combining the fact that there was a lot of aggression preflop with a same suit flop. The fact that you made it four bets preflop seems to indicate that you don't have much respect for your opponents preflop raising standards.

[toss]

Pot is big and all, but I fear one or two overpairs. We have flush draw, but its often not good or will get us into trouble. Just fold?

[krimson]

Actually something I just noticed that leads me fully towards a fold on the flop.

You capped pre-flop and your opponents c/r and 3-bet into you on the flop. They don't seemed too concerned about your hand so I'd expect you to be up against QQ+ and quite likely the Ac more often than not.

[deception5]

UTG's play seems like a range we beat - why would he be trying to knock UTG+1 out if he were holding AA/KK? I think his most likely holdings are QQ/Ax/TT/99.

UTG+1's play is a little more concerning. He could very well hold a monster here, check/raising both players. A weaker hand I think would check/fold or bet into the preflop capper (if he thought we'd raise with overcards) to try and knock out the third player.

I would consider calling to see what UTG thinks of his hand, but then it seems like there's a reasonable chance we'll be faced with 2 cold on the turn by hands which don't necessarily beat us so I don't think this would be a good idea.

So I think it's cap or fold. A cap may overrepresent our hand and may even fold UTG's QQ.

If we cap I think we need to consider folding the turn if bet into as the pot isn't quite large enough to chase a set (even with implied odds) and we've shown a lot of strength at this point.

I also think this might be one of the only situations I would consider folding JJ preflop without reads on UTG/UTG+1.

Edit: Missed the monotone flop, thought it said all rags not all clubs so most of this is inaccurate.

[W. Deranged]

The likelihood that we are behind and drawing to 1 out or less is so high here that I think we can fold here.

Very, very often at least one of the two check-raising hands is a bigger overpair, often with a big free-roll. Our /images/graemlins/club.gif is good here only a small percentage of the time given the rest of the action.

[mscags]

I think you need to fold this. You capped it preflop and it doesn't appear as if either of these two guys are giving you any respect. This makes me think that at least one of them can beat your jacks. I think this could very easily shape up to be a very expensive hand for you to showdown second best. BTW, why did you cap pf? I think arguements can be made for all three options, just curious as to you're thinking.

[DMBFan23]

wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[W. Deranged]

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wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last discussion I heard had this as a cold-call-three pre-flop.

[bobdibble]

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wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last discussion I heard had this as a cold-call-three pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone save a link to this discussion?

[W. Deranged]

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wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last discussion I heard had this as a cold-call-three pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone save a link to this discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea where to find this. This is like buried in my head from something I read like a year ago.

[Barry]

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wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last discussion I heard had this as a cold-call-three pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends a great deal on the other two.

Live, assuming no maniacs this is pretty clearly a fold PF.

I can also see online if the 1st raiser is a nut and the 3 bettor knows that (or is also a nut) and would be 3 betting light, etc, etc. But unless I was pretty sure of those facts, folding would be my most likely choice.

Come on folks, don't be like lemmings and blindly follow a PF decision 100% of the time because a name poster recommended it in response to a specific hand. Think about it in proper context.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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wasn't there a lot of discussion a while back where dynasty and others thought this was a fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last discussion I heard had this as a cold-call-three pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends a great deal on the other two.

Live, assuming no maniacs this is pretty clearly a fold PF.

I can also see online if the 1st raiser is a nut and the 3 bettor knows that (or is also a nut) and would be 3 betting light, etc, etc. But unless I was pretty sure of those facts, folding would be my most likely choice.

Come on folks, don't be like lemmings and blindly follow a PF decision 100% of the time because a name poster recommended it in response to a specific hand. Think about it in proper context.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I was just providing some context. certainly their positions have to be taken into account (EP raisers in full games scare me because I'm a 6max player) and I'd like UTG to not be a TAG.

[DeathDonkey]

Cap it and see what happens on the turn. You can't fold and if you just call what happens when the turn goes bet, raise to you - then your in a spot.

-DeathDonkey

[toss]

Cap it eh? Are we capping because the pot is large and we don't like calling, or are we capping because theres a reasonable chance we're ahead and our draw is good enough times?

[Luv2DriveTT]

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Live, assuming no maniacs this is pretty clearly a fold PF.

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I don't recall the last time I played a live game where I would ever consider folding this hand pre-flop in the stakes discussed or lower. Its gotta be a pretty tough game for me to consider your advice here Barry.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Barry]

In the daytime Mirage 20 or even at the FW's 20 a 3 bet usually is QQ or better.

One guy even yells at an AK 3 bettor "3 bets, no pair, are you cwazy?"

I've folded JJ and even AKo PF on more than one occasion in those games.

[detruncate]

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Cap it eh? Are we capping because the pot is large and we don't like calling, or are we capping because theres a reasonable chance we're ahead and our draw is good enough times?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could make a case for being ahead. You continuation bet, are c/r'ed as a (semi-)bluff by someone who thinks you're sometimes on overs or can be pushed out, and 3-bet by overs + a flush draw or some such hoping to use the c/r as leverage. I'm not sure it's a very convincing case, though. A lot would seem to depend on what sort of players we're up against.

[WillMagic]

Assuming this is a full game and you have no reads, this is a clear fold preflop. Why go up against UTG+1's range of AA, KK, QQ, and AK with JJ?

I'm folding to the flop three-bet.

I'm not going to lie, I feel weak-tight. But then...weak tight is generally right against a UTG+1 three-bet.

Will

[Chris Daddy Cool]

how would your answers change if you held black queens?

[bugstud]

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how would your answers change if you held black queens?

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I think I am coldcalling with both and seeing how the first player reacts. Black queens cuts down significantly on the number of hands (from some rare KcQc and AcQc and AcKc) down to just AcKc and KKw/c and AAw/c that have you crushed.

I just think that the 3bettor has AcKx or the like too often to muck here. My goal is to raise the turn and if UTG has a better hand without a club he's in a monstrous quandry. I dunno though, reads would be helpful.

[KDawgCometh]

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how would your answers change if you held black queens?

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it changes a bit since only two pairs beat us on this flop, but we'd still have to tread lightly as the action is pretty much dictating that the A /images/graemlins/club.gif is out there.

as far as the hand itself, I'd lean towards folding since we don't have any concrete reads here and the action is bascially telling you that your J /images/graemlins/club.gif is pretty much gonna be making a lesser flush if a fourth club comes, and I wouldn't be shocked to see an overpair be out there too