Not Quite Like Feeny

[Mikey]

i'm in a 10-20 HE and my opponnent is in the BB.

A little bit about him, its the first time we've played together in about 6-8 months. As soon as he see's me sitting in the game he makes a comment, "Ohh..... there he is... the guy who never plays a hand, everytime he raises he's got a good hand"

Some hands we have played together and I have seen him play he isn't overly agressive unless he's got a very good hand, like trips or a set, or the nuts or top two. He's sort of an intermediate to average player. He thinks about hands and trys to put his opponens on hands and the game we play in is very loose and on the agressive side as well.

So, here is the hand in question.

The game just got a little shorthaned now since some players are walking so its 6 of us. He's in the BB.

UTG folds and I Raise with KcKs.
the 2 players and the SB fold, and he calls from the BB.
Before he calls he makes a comment like..... "what you raised.."

And of course he calls my raise to play a little defense.

Now before I continue on with my story, there is a few things I have been reading which I must say are not absolutely true, about how your opponents perceive you and how they are paying attention, most of it is not true, because they are much more concerned with what they are holding than what you are holding not to mention the fact that when a tight guy does raise, most of them are thinking.... hmm I'll out play this guy.

So he defends and we see a flop.

The flop comes As Jc Ts.

he checks and I fire a bet.

He thinks for a moment and ponders and I can tell he really doesn't like his hand, thinks for a split second more and calls.

I believe at this point my hand is very good and I have no reason to believe he's holding an Ace.

Ok so the turn falls 9s.

Putting 3 spades up there.

He checks. I bet with KK with the nut draw he thinks for a second and makes the call.

On the river falls a Kh.

He checks. All I'm thinking in my mind is well..... the straight is up there for all of us to see, so I may as well bet this hand and hopefully he'll call me with his (Ace) maybe I was wrong and he has it, or maybe with some other holding, but what else can he have to call my river bet here...
Did he check a Queen?
Is he that crafty.

Now as I bet the river, im thinking, well I remember reading in Feeny's book, that the straight is there for all of us to see, so why not bet it since you believe you get a call from him not to mention the fact that a straight may as well bet into you since its so obvious.

On the river he checkraised me, and then all I could think about is TOP, well you should bet your hand for value on the end not on your chances of having the best hand, but on the chances of winning the last bet when you are called.

hmmm......

Which one is it?

Now in Feeny's example his opponnent lead bet the flop of
AKQ and called Feeny's raise
Turn was a blank, check call.
River was a Jack, and his opponnent hesiated and Feeny bet out.

Ive read feenys book also, and in general I think betting the river is correct If I feel I can safely fold to a checkraise. However, Lets say you always bet this board with your set and you always called a checkraise no matter who your opponent was. Even in this case I believe that betting is still +ev versus checking since the vast majority of the time when an opponent checks this board they do not have the straight, and you get to pick up an extra big bet. I still may check this board against a strong player or a player that loves to checkraise.

[DcifrThs]

if he likes to outplay you then betting means you have to call.

if he likes to outplay you and a good chance he has a queen then check behind.

feeney's example is playing vs. weak players.

in this hand i'd probably bet/call more than id check call, but if he looked happier w/ his river check than he did w/ his flop check id check behind.

Barron

[onegymrat]

Hi Mikey,
[ QUOTE ]
...there is a few things I have been reading which I must say are not absolutely true, about how your opponents perceive you and how they are paying attention, most of it is not true, because they are much more concerned with what they are holding than what you are holding not to mention the fact that when a tight guy does raise, most of them are thinking....

[/ QUOTE ]I don't think it's fair to try and use Feeney's essay as a contradiction to your particular hand, or your particular opponents and games. It's been over five years since Feeney wrote the book and his opponents at the time may surely be different than yours.

I agree with you about how most opponents do not worry about how dominated they may be, but more of how strong their own hands are. That is why we play, because of these great games. However, what Feeney warns is that as we move up in limits (which is the main point of most of his book), you will run into more thinking opponents, some of whom will play you according to your image that they perceive. In HIS case, he simply felt betting was the best option.

Remember that it's not really correct to say how OTHERS perceive us. Everyone thinks differently and perceptions will vary. In your case, your opponent (assuming he's holding a queen) felt that check-raising was the best play. His perception of your aggression was probably that you would bet all the way and would eventually call a river raise also.

As for the hand, there's plenty of hands that he could be holding, especially since he's calling down all the way. Most likely he's holding two paints, but my uneducated guess is that he flopped the stone cold nuts.

[Mikey]

i wasn't using feeny's example as a contradiction.
I think he wrote a great example about how to value bet the river in this instance, and if I could do it all over again I think I would bet.

Also about the opponents paying attention to how you are playing and such, I didn't pull that idea out of Feeny's book. I'm saying that in general most poker books say that your opponnents are paying attention to you, I don't think that happens as often as everyone thinks it does and even if they are paying attention most don't really adjust accordingly.