(22) Am I missing something on how to play AK

[golfcchs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t800)
UTG (t740)
UTG+1 (t785)
MP1 (t710)
MP2 (t885)
MP3 (t1725)
CO (t520)
Button (t1050)
Hero (t785)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

UTG calls, 4 folds, Co raise to 125, 1 fold, Hero raise all in

Flop: (t22.50) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(9 players)</font>

Turn: (t22.50) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(9 players)</font>

River: (t22.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(9 players)</font>

Is there a better way then this to play AK?

[flyingmoose]

I auto-fold this.

[Bigwig]

EDIT--Nevermind. I reread the scenario.

This is not a good spot. I'm not opposed to calling here. But with the UTG limper, and the blinds so small, I cannot recommend a reraise.

[tigerite]

Got to agree. I mean, sure, pushing AK is fine when there's 20-50% of your stack in the pot most times, but not when someone has raised as much as 125 - they aren't going to fold, and you're just going to be in a race. Unless he's a total donk that is who raises with crap, but I doubt you can have a read like that at level 1.

You're one of the better players at the table, or should be - let it go.

[ilya]

Wow I'm really surprised to see people recommending a fold. I would push or stop &amp; go.

[curtains]

You should move allin. CO is shortstacked and made a ridiculously large raise, and thus probably sucks. You are probably a clear favorite against his range of hands.

I have folded AKo in situations SIMILAR to this in the past, but in this one there are just too many positives to fold.

[Slim Pickens]

I call this. He's not letting it go preflop if you push, and if you play it right, players the 22's with QQ will pay off a king-high flop a lot of the time. I'm checking that flop since you'll almost never want to lead at someone with QQ, JJ, or a donk with AQ or AJ. You're either trapping or letting it go.

[curtains]

We do realize our opponent only has lkie 400 chips after the raise? Also we might WANT our opponent to call as they could easily have something like AQ, AJ, KQ who knows....worst thing to do is call and fold on the flop when your opponent whiffed with AJ and you missed with AK.

I'm not willing to flat call for 125 in a tiny pot with the plan of folding for 400 more if I miss, aganist a range that could be quite wide.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
We do realize our opponent only has lkie 400 chips after the raise? Also we might WANT our opponent to call as they could easily have something like AQ, AJ, KQ who knows....worst thing to do is call and fold on the flop when your opponent whiffed with AJ and you missed with AK.

I'm not willing to flat call for 125 in a tiny pot with the plan of folding for 400 more if I miss, aganist a range that could be quite wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny. I think of this hand precisely the same way. And I like pushing or folding, and frankly, I'm prolly a pussy here.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I call this. He's not letting it go preflop if you push, and if you play it right, players the 22's with QQ will pay off a king-high flop a lot of the time. I'm checking that flop since you'll almost never want to lead at someone with QQ, JJ, or a donk with AQ or AJ. You're either trapping or letting it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also note that a player at any level would be CORRECT to pay off on an ace high or king high flop w QQ in this spot, with only 395 behind. Not because of pot odds of course, but because you cant just allow your opponent to stop+go, and if checked to, you must bet in such a giant pot.

[kyro]

CO has 520 chips. I'd be curious to know why.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]

You should move allin. CO is shortstacked and made a ridiculously large raise, and thus probably sucks. You are probably a clear favorite against his range of hands.

I have folded AKo in situations SIMILAR to this in the past, but in this one there are just too many positives to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah, if it's a donk who raises with crap like I said, a push is great here. If such a read can be possible here, then go for it. Does depend a lot on how he lost those 200+ chips.

[zambonidrivr]

One of the lessons I've had to learn while moving from $10's-$50's, is that making laydowns like this will greatly improve your success rate. Yes, you may have the best hand here, by why push this small edge at level 1? Aces, kings, queens? Sure, call or shove it in. It may help if you shift your mindset from thinking about the cards you hold, and consider your stack and the level that your in. IMO, calling is worst here as you want to preserve as much FE as you can. I can understand a shove, especially at the $10's, but I think as you move up, you need to feel good about letting this go. I wish I had the same discipline with my MTT game.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow I'm really surprised to see people recommending a fold. I would push or stop &amp; go.

[/ QUOTE ]

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow I'm really surprised to see people recommending a fold. I would push or stop &amp; go.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow I'm really surprised to see people recommending a fold. I would push or stop &amp; go.

[/ QUOTE ]

instead of just quoting this I am going to add my 2 cents...

How much of an edge do you people think you have in these things? Not enough...trust me.


I push.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
Also note that a player at any level would be CORRECT to pay off on an ace high or king high flop w QQ in this spot, with only 395 behind. Not because of pot odds of course, but because you cant just allow your opponent to stop+go, and if checked to, you must bet in such a giant pot .

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow this. If I have QQ in this situation (395 behind, A or K on flop, checked to) I am checking behind. If I bet and he has no A or no K, he's going to fold and I get nothing. If he has an A or a K, he calls and I'm toast. If I check behind, when he has an A or K I still lose on the turn or river, but I would have lost if I bet on the flop anyway. If he has no A and no K he may bluff on the turn or the river and then I win something where if I had bet the flop I would have won nothing.

[Karak567]

I push here every time.

[pius]

Pushing here is a major mistake in my opinion. The independent chip model theory tells us that the chips earned are less valuable than the ones we lose. Therefore you should be weary to get all your chips in the pot against someone you will usually call you holding a slightly superior hand.

Concerning the other option of calling the picture is a little more blurry. The EV depends a lot on how you and your opponent are going to play postflop. All we can conclude is that you'll have to play significantly better than your opponent to make up for the EV you lose simply by putting you chips in the middle for the call.

So I think it's marginal whether you should call or fold here.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
We do realize our opponent only has lkie 400 chips after the raise? Also we might WANT our opponent to call as they could easily have something like AQ, AJ, KQ who knows....worst thing to do is call and fold on the flop when your opponent whiffed with AJ and you missed with AK.

I'm not willing to flat call for 125 in a tiny pot with the plan of folding for 400 more if I miss, aganist a range that could be quite wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm folding flops like QJx, but that's about it... probably not all undercards since I can easily put him on AQ or AJ. The problem his raise causes you is that now there's no way to get any information about his hand without putting him all-in.

I still don't quite get why you don't like folding if you miss? You are calling 125 to win 1100 if you hit and lose 125 if you miss, if you fold every time. Bad players at the 22's aren't laying down QQ on a king-high (and sometimes not an ace-high) board if you check the flop.

[Slim Pickens]

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.6618 % 50.80% 05.86% { AKo }
Hand 2: 43.3382 % 37.48% 05.86% { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 55.1097 % 47.14% 07.97% { AKo }
Hand 2: 44.8903 % 36.92% 07.97% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.5027 % 40.79% 09.71% { AKo }
Hand 2: 49.4973 % 39.79% 09.71% { TT+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ }

I'm liking the push even less now. There's some poker left to be played.

[zambonidrivr]

wrong

You barely have had time to get comfortable at the table, so I wouldnt put myself into a coinflip situation this early with a drawing hand. Sure, it may be the best drawing hand, but still not worth getting busted this early IMHO.

Early in sngs, I just dont like to get into coinflip situations. I like to try to find a better spot with a little more clarity. And, you are playing a 22, so you should be one of the better players at the table. So, i would recommend caution, not agression here.

I couldnt agree more with you here. I think most of these people responding to this thread are players in the higher buy in sngs. They may be forced to push these small edges earlier in sngs, but in the lower stakes ones, we should preserve our chips and wait for a better opportunity. We should be able to outplay most at the table, so why negate our edge with a coin flip this early.

[zambonidrivr]

I disagree. I think most of the people responding here are 10-20 players... as higher buy in players understand that level 1 with AK is not a place to take a flip, with that kind of preflop action. I'd rather push any 2 on the bubble than take a flip like this.

You are confusing me here...you agree with my statement, just not with my assumption about the buy ins of the people responding....at least thats what i hope because i agreed with the say you said you would play this and i would also rather push any 2 on the bubble than make this push here.

if the people responding to this are smaller stakes players, then i hope they sit at my table. i just dont understand why people play this hand this hard this early...this isnt a made hand, why risk everything this early on a drawing hand...just doesnt make sense to me.

[zambonidrivr]

alright, no i think i misread your post. i thought you were saying... at higher limits, you have to push this.

i could not agree with you more.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

right

[pineapple888]

You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[pooh74]

Alright, there seems to be a lot of disagreement here so I am going to give some reasons as to why I feel a push is best and calling is worst (unless you plan on moving in on any flop ala SnGo.)

1. you are ahead of Villain's range.

2. Villain is shortstacked early which often points to "donk" where he thinks A3s is a monster.

2a. Even an average range for villain may be widened here a bit if read from number "2" is reasonable.

3. Although close to none, you do have "some" fold equity...exactly how much I don't know.

4. I dont want to call this and fold to villain's flop all in when I whiff.

5. This stretches the definition of weak tight beyond what I feel comfortable with.

There is room for disagreement here and I certainly am not commenting from a place with much experience with Party SNGs. But th elevel and site I play on, these are valued early game situations because pushboting is not that much of an edge...especially when there are now typically 2-3 2ers plus other regulars at almost every table lately...its a race for the dead money sometimes.

If you all say the 11s at party are so easy late game, then I wil agree that this could be a fold...and I think I switch to party and pwn the 11s.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahh, grapefruit to my rescue! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[zambonidrivr]

this is why sng's will remain profitable to winning players.

GG

[ QUOTE ]

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the first level, so if you are getting antsy to get your money in already, I think yer crazy! and i would rather take AJo 5 handed, than AK in this situation. no need to take advantage of every single miniscule edge you get on every single hand...

comfortably covered? we are talking level 1 here. ah, nevermind, difference of opinion, but i think you are taking way too many risks this early...

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the lessons I've had to learn while moving from $10's-$50's

[/ QUOTE ]

The 50s are a totally different story. But the 22s? Come on!

[zambonidrivr]

not this early. sorry man. just a diff in opinion. it's all good.

It seems all the 'regulars' recommend a push, but the fact that villain is shortstacked and raises that much is an important factor. If he had an average stack, and you have no reason to believe he's a bad player, is a call better then?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems all the 'regulars' recommend a push, but the fact that villain is shortstacked and raises that much is an important factor. If he had an average stack, and you have no reason to believe he's a bad player, is a call better then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think someone with this many chips this early gives us a lot of reason to believe he is not a solid player...nevermind it is the 11s.

You know what, the best thing about this hand is that whether you push or fold, over the long haul, its not going to be THAT much of a difference. I just don't like calling and playing from SB too much, but even that's not horrible.

[golfcchs]

Could you explain these numbers here? Which one is my over all ev if I push?

[ QUOTE ]

You know what, the best thing about this hand is that whether you push or fold, over the long haul, its not going to be THAT much of a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree over the long haul the difference will be negligible. so, i guess it really lies more in your tolerance for busting out early. If you dont mind getting busted early, then by all means get your chips in. but, if it bothers you and ends up affecting your play, then fold it. Its a matter of choice. but i think that because the debate is pretty evenly divided, that there is no clear cut answer...just preference.

[mhcmarty]

I'd like to see the hand history on how vilan was busted down to his current chip stack. That might swing the decision.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain these numbers here? Which one is my over all ev if I push?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the range of hands you think your opponent might have. Those numbers are from Poker Stove, which you can download and use for free. What I'm trying to point out there is that even against a fairly loose range, you're still less than 60% to win if you get called. Since you folding equity is so low, I don't think pushing is profitable enough to do.

However, I see an excellent implied odds argument for just calling here and seeing a flop. I dislike folding, but not that much.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You know what, the best thing about this hand is that whether you push or fold, over the long haul, its not going to be THAT much of a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree over the long haul the difference will be negligible. so, i guess it really lies more in your tolerance for busting out early. If you dont mind getting busted early, then by all means get your chips in. but, if it bothers you and ends up affecting your play, then fold it. Its a matter of choice. but i think that because the debate is pretty evenly divided, that there is no clear cut answer...just preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the whole impasse here is the ol' hourly rate/ROI issue...if you like more $per hour then push, if you are concerned about that stupid arbitrary # called ROI which, by the way, you cannot blow on beer and ladies, then folding is good for you. I like beer and ladies.

So, basically I made this whole issue into a macho thing...so for all of you who said fold, its only because you lack a penis...


/images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

[/ QUOTE ]

AND...we are in level 1...i just dont know where the fire is?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys crack me up.

To the coin-flip-assumers: either one of these players could have anything, early in the 22s. One of them with a pair is *worst* case, and even that's not so bad.

To the "I can outplay these suckers later" crowd: Just how many premium hands do you think you're getting in a shallow-stack, fast-structure SNG?

And to top it off, you've got the raiser comfortably covered in chips.

I auto-push this, and it's very, very easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

[/ QUOTE ]

But how often do you think you can stack a guy who SOOOO often you have dominated PF? -I am again assuming he is that kind of player...obviously he can have AA here too...but I really feel worst case scenario here is a flip and that won't be enough of the time to make this edge less profitable than the late game one.

i see donks raising hands like A7-AJ like this more often than he is willing to overbet a monster (JJ+).

i think you're giving the guy too much respect.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i see donks raising hands like A7-AJ like this more often than he is willing to overbet a monster (JJ+).

i think you're giving the guy too much respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

You replied to me but I dont think you meant to...because I'm the one NOT giving him respect.

[Bigwig]

Nobody is concerned about the UTG limper? Without that limper, the hand changes entirely.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also note that a player at any level would be CORRECT to pay off on an ace high or king high flop w QQ in this spot, with only 395 behind. Not because of pot odds of course, but because you cant just allow your opponent to stop+go, and if checked to, you must bet in such a giant pot .

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow this. If I have QQ in this situation (395 behind, A or K on flop, checked to) I am checking behind. If I bet and he has no A or no K, he's going to fold and I get nothing. If he has an A or a K, he calls and I'm toast. If I check behind, when he has an A or K I still lose on the turn or river, but I would have lost if I bet on the flop anyway. If he has no A and no K he may bluff on the turn or the river and then I win something where if I had bet the flop I would have won nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea is that the pot is gigantic compared to your stack and thus you should be less apt to give free cards, especially since your opponent might not bluff if they have nothing anyway. In any case that wasn't my point, my point was that all your money is going to go in the pot anyway with QQ and an overcard on the flop, and that doesn't make you a "donk"

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We do realize our opponent only has lkie 400 chips after the raise? Also we might WANT our opponent to call as they could easily have something like AQ, AJ, KQ who knows....worst thing to do is call and fold on the flop when your opponent whiffed with AJ and you missed with AK.

I'm not willing to flat call for 125 in a tiny pot with the plan of folding for 400 more if I miss, aganist a range that could be quite wide.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm folding flops like QJx, but that's about it... probably not all undercards since I can easily put him on AQ or AJ. The problem his raise causes you is that now there's no way to get any information about his hand without putting him all-in.

I still don't quite get why you don't like folding if you miss? You are calling 125 to win 1100 if you hit and lose 125 if you miss, if you fold every time. Bad players at the 22's aren't laying down QQ on a king-high (and sometimes not an ace-high) board if you check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling 125 to win 1100? This math isnt even close to correct. And I don't know why you keep stressing the "bad players arent folding QQ on a king-high flop", because I wouldn't fold in that spot with a king high or ace high flop and I don't consider myself a bad player.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is concerned about the UTG limper? Without that limper, the hand changes entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at an 11$ at level 1 I wouldnt be, no.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems all the 'regulars' recommend a push, but the fact that villain is shortstacked and raises that much is an important factor. If he had an average stack, and you have no reason to believe he's a bad player, is a call better then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just can't find any reason to call, period. You have to think all his chips are going in no matter what, and you really want to see all five cards with AK in this situation.

In other words, you make it impossible to second guess yourself when the flop misses both of you, he pushes, and you fold when you are ahead. Or when you are behind but the turn/river would have saved you.

Fold if you have a read that both players are TA (unlikely at the 22s). Otherwise, push.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, you get a hand with the strength of AJ every 10 hands (statistically speaking).

[/ QUOTE ]

But AK is way way way way way way way better than AJ. Think about it.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]

Fold if you have a read that both players are TA (unlikely at the 22s). Otherwise, push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the thing here, not too often is a TAG going to be this short at level I...

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is concerned about the UTG limper? Without that limper, the hand changes entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I don't care about this limper in a $11 sit and go. I really feel that due to the game factors this is a totally obvious push, I can't believe people want to fold. I'd actually bet that AKo is about 60% against the raisers range, as the above ranges I'm seeing look too tight to me aganist some random $11 donk with no chips who likes to make absurd overbets.

[Bigwig]

Well, I'm not making the point based on the fact that it is an $11 SNG. But if that's a major factor, okay. Push.

[golfcchs]

Not that it makes much of a difference, but this is a 22.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that it makes much of a difference, but this is a 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops, whatever...same thing. UTG limper approaches zero for level of meaningful.

Note: blind level is more a concern in this regard than the buy-in level...I would say the same for a 33.

[Slim Pickens]

Sorry, you win an extra 400 when you hit. It's an 1100 pot. I should say you're calling 125 to win 525, almost for sure, 2:1 against. It's important that your opponent not fold most of the time with an ace or king on the flop for this to work. The opponent here is probably a bad player, so it's important that bad players not fold with and ace or king in the flop.

Really, I think most bad opponents at the 22's lack the sophistication to bet missed overs when it's checked to them on the flop. It seems really basic to us, but really I see the AK vs. AJ going something like this.

Villain raises to t125
Hero calls
UTG fold

Flop is all undercards, not really coordinated
Hero checks, Villain checks.

Turn is some other under that doesn't really connect in a logical way with anyone's raising or calling hands.
Hero checks, Villain bets t50, Hero raises all-in, Villain calls.

River is a jack, hitting Villain's three-outer, and Hero loses.

He's checking behind when he misses and betting most of the time he has an overpair. I'm just not giving him enough credit for being able to bluff with overcards post flop if he thinks he's drawing to something.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is concerned about the UTG limper? Without that limper, the hand changes entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that at a 22 the UTG limper probably has nothing.

[Seadood228]

Even in a $22, I don't see too many players having a large enough edge against a shortstacked raiser to make this a fold. I don't like a stop/go either esp with the UTG player still in the hand.

This looks like a push to me. If the Raiser had me covered, I might fold this in a $22.

[valenzuela]

I read the whole thread.
Conclusion: My chips are on the middle, all of them.

UTG limper?lol.

lets see...
short stack..check.
overbet..check.
premium hand..check.
11 dollar SNG on party..check.
Where do I sing up??

[golfcchs]

Why does every one think this is a 11?

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does every one think this is a 11?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to divide the buyin mentioned in the header by 2. It's an insider thing. Don't tell anyone.

[Nick M]

very good point...

[JudoGirl]

pushing is correct
stop n go is correct
folding is weak, but in some situations (not yours) correct.
calling and check/folding to a bet when you don't hit is wrong (unless you are playing against me, in which case it is encouraged. Well, it's still wrong, but it is highly encouraged).

The stop-n-go increases your folding equity but decreases the amount you'll win when your AK is the best hand. Going all-in decreases your folding equity, but increases how much you will win if your hand is best at the end.

The act of calling puts so much money into the pot that you must go all in as you are at worst 45 to 55 against all but AA/KK. The pot is offering you way better odds than 45 to 55 once you call. Thus, if you call, you must push on any flop. If you will act after the raiser after the flop, you must go all in preflop or fold. You cannot call because by calling you are making a horrendous mathematical mistake.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does every one think this is a 11?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I thought it was for some reason...got confused.