AQ donked

[LoaferGee12]

No reads on villain here.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB.

I guess I just didn't feel like that donk represented improvement given the nature of the board. Is this raise no good? Also, given my raise should i be pitching it to a 3-bet?

[ClaytonN]

I like it.

[tyler_cracker]

I would rather call down the turn donk once MP folds.

As you played it, you have to call the 3-bet. If he has a set you're drawing dead, but if he has two pair (which is statistically more likely), you have 5 outs to improve getting 11:1.

I don't think you're good often enough to call the river bet once you miss your 5 outer. Edit: i mean once you're 3-bet on the turn. If you pick the call down line, call it down all the way.

I am always torn on these and not sure what is right. Absent reads I tend to just call them down, take notes, and see what they have. If I have a read that they will be donking all top pair type of hands here, even after the flop raise, then I raise for sure. I don't think I can fold anywhere here, especially against an unknown.

Without reads, a whole lot of different stuff could be happening here, a lot of which is bad for you.

Usually leading the flop after being raised on the turn is a large red flag, and I'm thinking it's either a limped AA or he spiked a set. Call me weak-tight, but I'd call down on 4th and 5th, probably lose, and make a note of what he played like that.

[ClaytonN]

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I don't think you're good often enough to call the river bet once you miss your 5 outer. Edit: i mean once you're 3-bet on the turn. If you pick the call down line, call it down all the way.

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it's six max. tards will do this with TP in 1/2. esp on weekends.

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I don't think you're good often enough to call the river bet once you miss your 5 outer. Edit: i mean once you're 3-bet on the turn. If you pick the call down line, call it down all the way.

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it's six max. tards will do this with TP in 1/2. esp on weekends.

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Yeah you can't even think about folding this.

[tyler_cracker]

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it's six max. tards will do this with TP in 1/2. esp on weekends.

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I (still) don't play 6max, but tards are bet/3-betting with just top pair after getting raised preflop and on the flop? That's nutty.

Are they doing this often enough that you prefer raising the turn to just calling down?

[TomBrooks]

Usually, I'd probably call the flop to induce a bet from UTG on the turn when I'd raise if it was a non-scary. Can't get anyone to fold anyway. There are a lot of scary cards that could fill in a straight here to watch out for also.

That didn't turn out to be an issue with this hand though.

As played, UTG betting out on the turn after Hero's flop raise makes me think 66 for a set unless he's a Moran, so I just call down.

[LoaferGee12]

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Usually, I'd probably call the flop to induce a bet from UTG on the turn when I'd raise if it was a non heart. Can't get anyone to fold anyway.


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Yes but i can cash in on my large equity, and there is no guarantee UTG will bet again. I think this flop raise is pretty standard, no?

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Usually, I'd probably call the flop to induce a bet from UTG on the turn when I'd raise if it was a non heart. Can't get anyone to fold anyway.


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Yes but i can cash in on my large equity, and there is no guarantee UTG will bet again. I think this flop raise is pretty standard, no?

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HU maybe maybe I wait for the turn sometimes to mix it up, but with two opponents you raise the flop and it is not even close.

[Shillx]

No you can't fold to the turn 3-bet. I would fold the river though.

[ArturiusX]

The river is close, the pots big, but you're almost always beat here.

I call because people can be jerks with KQ.

[LoaferGee12]

Thoughts on the flop raise either of you? And I agree the river call is very marginal at best.

[shant]

Readless you can't play this any different.

[Shillx]

Thoughts on the flop raise either of you?

It is fine. There are two things that I consider when choosing to raise or call the flop.

1) How many people are in the middle

2) Do I have a one card BD flush draw

The bigger the number for part (1), the more I am inclined to wait it out and see what the turn brings. Likewise I'm more inclined to wait when I don't hold a key blocker (in this case the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif). So this is a picture perfect time to raise the flop IMO. Make your hand A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif and put 4 callers in the middle and I'll wait until 4th street. (This is for a ring game. Don't really know how much things change in a SH game.)

Brad

Part (2) could very well be based on faulty logic and it would be interesting to see if it actually is better to wait without a flush redraw. My argument is that you will not be able to get a raise in with the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif when the 3rd /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes since you have to payoff all bets (therefore I like to get my value raise in now). Without the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif you can raise when the 3rd /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes and easily get away from it should someone make it 3-bets.

[ArturiusX]

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Thoughts on the flop raise either of you? And I agree the river call is very marginal at best.

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With a guy in the middle, flop raise is good. Waiting for the turn may cause MP to fold for 1 when SB bets out again. Also a few cards we aren't huge on, so lets get our money in while our equity is strong.

[yellowjack]

UTG took a creative line to get 3 bets in on the turn, and against the hand you happened to have, it worked. if you had something like Ah Jh his line would have been less effective.