109: AK flop play

[wuwei]

We're still early in level 1, but my sense is that MP2 is not very good at the poker. I haven't picked up anything on the BB.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB (t870)
UTG (t1340)
Hero (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1045)
MP1 (t960)
MP2 (t880)
MP3 (t1010)
CO (t910)
Button (t880)
SB (t1105)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t55</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t95</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls t80, Hero calls t40.

Flop: (t292.50) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t200</font>, Hero...

[bigt439]

Well that sucks. I just wrote out a response if BB is the reraiser pf and he's not. Arg.

As it stands I think I just muck here. I know it really sucks to do that, but what is this BB betting? Unless he is horrendous he has you beat. Add to this the fact that there's still a very real chance MP has you beat or tied and it's way too hard and expensive to play this hand with what has just become a relatively weak holding. When you're ahead you likely win less than what you lose when behind as well, because you really have to put your stack in to know for sure here. I fold and don't even feel that bad about it.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Well that sucks. I just wrote out a response if BB is the reraiser pf and he's not. Arg.

As it stands I think I just muck here. I know it really sucks to do that, but what is this BB betting? Unless he is horrendous he has you beat. Add to this the fact that there's still a very real chance MP has you beat or tied and it's way too hard and expensive to play this hand with what has just become a relatively weak holding. When you're ahead you likely win less than what you lose when behind as well, because you really have to put your stack in to know for sure here. I fold and don't even feel that bad about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

My name is kyro and I agree with bigt.

(I think you could also make a case for monkeypushing PF but I like calling better.)

[freemoney]

i really think folding sucks here, i call down.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
i really think folding sucks here, i call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think BB has?

[ChrisV]

This is a nasty spot. I totally don't buy that BB is beating me, though. The instinct of most players would be to check if they've flopped something as monstrous as a set or top two. I think he has something like AJ, AT or JTs (and don't try telling me people won't call these to double raises, because they can and do when the actual raise amount is this low).

Nevertheless I think I'm going to fold. Shoving my stack in seems a little premature. Calling will only help if MP2 folds. If he raises allin, I've lost my 200 and might be folding a split best hand as well. If he calls, I'm going to have no idea what to do on the turn.

We're left with fold by a process of elimination. Often in these 3-way piggy in the middle situations, it's best to write the whole thing off as a bad experience and move on.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i really think folding sucks here, i call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think BB has?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm unsure as to the move here, but I don't think it's a clear fold.

How many players come out betting for 2/3 pot after they've flopped a monster with AA/QQ/AQ? Don't they want to allow MP2 to CB, to allow AK (even AJ) to continue to pay them off, etc.?

I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of someone playing that hand range this way. But it could also be a donk-ish AJ/AT "figuring out where hes at."

I suppose I should just say that I don't know, because I don't play these stakes. I know that in a 22, my money is getting in here everytime (probably by just calling the flop, then calling/pushing the turn to allow AJ- to stay in the hand). Readless, this is just tough =/.

[kyro]

There are very few players at the $109s (I'm assuming. I've only played 50 there or so) that will still be in that hand given the action PF with AT/AJ. I think you'll see AQ/QQ/99 here very often, as well as AK. I don't think you'll see much that we beat.

[Bonafone]

I fold here, pretty quickly.

[curtains]

Wow Im surprised how many people want to fold this...

[Irieguy]

Yeah, it sucks... but folding here is wrong.

Pushing is what you do if you are good enough to recognize that folding is wrong, but not good enough to avoid making calling wrong by misplaying the rest of the hand.

So I would call here and do my best to play the rest of the hand really well.

Irieguy

[Bonafone]

So what's your plan from here on out. Call down or push?

[Deuce2High]

I go all in and don't think twice.

[Ogre]

i get myself all in because i dont think the bb bets out with a hand that beats me

[Bonafone]

Well it appears PPisgreedy may be right, I'm way to weak-tight.

[Michael C.]

I would push here myself. Unless I know that bb is a good player who bets with very strong hands, I'll take my chances. I think his most likely holding is a weaker ace. I think he'd check raise with two pair or a set, barring a stronger read on him. If the third player has me beat, so be it. I also think it's possible bb calls my push with something like AJ as well. There are a lot more bad 109 players that a lot of you probably realize.

[ChrisV]

I generally like to back myself postflop, but this is a situation where you're just not going to have enough room or information to make a decision.

Suppose you call and MP2 calls. On the turn:

(1) BB bets out allin. Are you calling?
(2) BB checks. Are you pushing?
(3) If you check in (2), MP2 bets allin. BB folds. Calling?

I don't think the above questions are answerable.

At the risk of sounding like Hellmuth, I think I'd rather back myself to play the rest of the tourney with 900 chips than toss my stack in here and hope for the best. The cardinal f#@king rule for me in SNGs is never stack off with no outs. That said, I don't really have any quarrel with pushing or calling. If I was splitting the tournament with someone who desperately wanted to do one of those two, I'd go along with it.

PS: I think it's most likely that BB isn't beating you. However, I wouldnt write the idea off. It is quite player dependent. If you're facing me in the BB here, you are 100% looking at either 99, QQ or AK (and the first two are more likely as I may play the AK differently).

[Blarg]

I agree. My first thought was that BB had a weaker ace and wanted to throttle the betting by betting less than the pot, and hopefully chase one or both players out.

If he had a really good hand, this sort of stop and go bet wouldn't be necessary. He could let either hero or MP2 bet the hand for him, and build it up, instead of taking a chance of either losing all further money that could be put into the pot by betting out unnecessarily, or at least cutting back any possible betting to a minimum, including a push into him which could be great if he's REALLY got the goods.

An ace on the flop in a three way hand where there was a raise and re-raise will almost certainly draw a bet from either BB or MP2 whether they have an ace or not. Especially if MP2 raises preflop and doesn't get raised back, he knows he either has the best cards, or that if he doesn't pretend he does on an ace flop after two people check to him, they're going to know the jig is up and that he doesn't have an ace. At that point, they may put him on something like a pair of jacks, and know not only that any held ace beats him, but that even a pure bluff is very likely to make him fold if the turn is a blank. So MP2 is almost obligated to bet the flop or face folding on the turn to any bettor.

This bet out from BB just does not strike me as evidence of strength, but as an attempt to shut down the betting so nobody bets or bluffs big on that ace, and to maybe even snatch the pot outright for cheap whether he's already beaten or not. I would often expect BB to turn over a medium ace, as many people are blind happy and would love to call such a small raise if they were already in the blind.

[freemoney]

the only interesting part of this hand is MP2 behind you, otherwise its very boring and very standard

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
the only interesting part of this hand is MP2 behind you, otherwise its very boring and very standard

[/ QUOTE ]

So far you haven't said anything remotely useful. Just thought I'd let you know.

<font color="white">Here, I'll help you out. Why do you feel that MP being in the hand makes the hand interesting? </font>

[wuwei]

Thanks for the responses, folks. ChrisV, I hope recovering from surgery is going well.

One of my issues with this hand is that I've only played 2-3 dozen 109s. I don't have a great feel for the "general" opponent here when it's early and I haven't developed a read.

Preflop, the BB called a raise and a reraise. As Chris noted, the total bet was still pretty small and BB's range is significantly wider than my range of hands in that spot.

Next, he leads that flop. Those of you who think the BB doesn't lead a hand that beats you... well, that's why I often lead hands that beat you in that spot /images/graemlins/smile.gif Leading gives us a chance to trap the guy in the middle and try to build a monster pot with our big hand. Hmm, but I'm not always playing myself here...

So... where was I. Even if the BB can't beat us at this point, we still have the other guy to act behind us. I'm really not that concerned about him, I'd be happy getting all my chips in the middle with him based on the donkish read. Regardless, his presence still makes me uncomfortable. Or perhaps I should appreciate his presence, as he may provide some overlay for the times we're behind the BB.

That's enough rambling, time for bed. I'll check back in tomorrow.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it sucks... but folding here is wrong.

Pushing is what you do if you are good enough to recognize that folding is wrong, but not good enough to avoid making calling wrong by misplaying the rest of the hand.

So I would call here and do my best to play the rest of the hand really well.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also call, personally.

[lacky]

no surprise from me, I'm calling here, and have no problem putting in the rest of my stack if need be. there's always another 109 starting.

Steve

[johnnybeef]

I call with the willingness to go broke on the turn.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I call with the willingness to go broke on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think I overestimated BB's skill level and the chance that a bad player in MP has us beat. This makes sense to go broke to the BB, but do you put another chip in the pot if MP calls behind us? I'm pretty sure we're folding if MP pushes correct?

[freemoney]

i gave u the best line, i dont need to write a book to say it.

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it sucks... but folding here is wrong.

Pushing is what you do if you are good enough to recognize that folding is wrong, but not good enough to avoid making calling wrong by misplaying the rest of the hand.

So I would call here and do my best to play the rest of the hand really well.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically what you are trying to say is get down to the river and see a cheap showdown. If villain does not give you that option, you are OK but not happy with getting your money all in, right?

If it were just your original raise, I might put him on J10. But lets give this guy in the BB a little credit. You raise from EP and MP reraises...what could BB be calling this dangerous action with? Gotta be AK, AQ, or a pair. If he's got a pair JJ or lower, he's just gonna check fold. He doesn't have AA obviously. If he has QQ or 99, I think he slowplays. AK actually seems the most likely. AQ wouldn't surprise me (he might be afraid of checkraising in case he's up against a set) The other possibility would be KK (he doesn't want to just check fold, so he throws a bet out to see where he's at) I think a fold here is the safest bet.

Note that I don't play this limit and I don't know if someone would call with something like J10suited. If so, then I would probably put them on a strt. draw.

Not a 109 pro but this level does have its share of idiots. Keep in mind he was getting 2 to 1 with his call (2.5 if original raiser comes)and huge implied odds. J10 suited is only 1.5 to 1 against AK or AQ. 200 looks like a blocker bet to me. I think I raise him here and see what MP2 does. You will find where you stand real quick and I probably call an all in as well. BB would not lead out on this board with raise and re-raiser behind him, he would most def go for check raise if he has a set. Two pair he may be a little more aggressive to see where he stands but I am reasonably sure he goes for the check raise with either.

[Scuba Chuck]

wuwei, I've been thinking about this hand a lot. Not only do I see 2 pair playing it this way, but I also see a weaker ace and TJ playing it this way.

I can see why calling is more desirable, as we're likely only getting called by better hands if we push ...right? If we think a hand like AJ, AT, JT would call our push, then pushing seems good.

I'd be interested to hear how Lacky/Irie would play the turn and river, and feel free to provide any range of cards you would like...

[The Yugoslavian]

Well, what you ideally want to do is get worse hands to give you all of their chips and to see a cheap showdown vs. better hands. Pushing is a very brute force way to at least allow the former to happen...unfortunately you end up always losing the maximum to better hands and not maximizing your chances of extracting chips from worse hands.

This pot has gotten v large and I'd just push here. However, someone like Unarmed likely would be able to call and extract more value from his opponent on the turn depending on what happens.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

I would move allin here. Im not a huge fan of the "deceptive" flat calls in spots like this, when the pot is already quite signifigant. I play very bad and boring ABC poker though.

lol, what the heck? Someone PMed me to respond to this, didnt realize it was so old and that I'd already answered it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bonafone]

Well thank you for bumping it. Reminds me how my game has changed just over this past month.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Well thank you for bumping it. Reminds me how my game has changed just over this past month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, wow no kidding.

I read the post and was like, I'd probably call here, and then I look at the first response which is me saying to fold.

Funny stuff.

[MSUcougar]

[ QUOTE ]
no surprise from me, I'm calling here, and have no problem putting in the rest of my stack if need be. there's always another 109 starting.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe I'm with Lacky here...