Re Guns: One for the good guys

[benfranklin]

AKA, throwing raw meat into the tiger cage.

[ QUOTE ]
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - Brazilians soundly rejected a proposal to ban guns in a national referendum Sunday, striking down the bid to stem one of the world's highest firearm murder rates following a campaign that drew parallels to the U.S. gun control debate.

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Story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051023/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_gun_referendum)

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...opponents played on Brazilians' fears that the police can't protect them.

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Look at that propaganda. The sentence should read "...opponents played on the fact that police can't protect them."

Has anyone ever attempted to explain why the Swiss have one of the highest firearm ownership rates per capita and yet a very low firearm murder rate? Why wern't the swiss mentioned in Bowling for Columbine?

[BCPVP]

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Has anyone ever attempted to explain why the Swiss have one of the highest firearm ownership rates per capita and yet a very low firearm murder rate?

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Yes (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879757566/104-1291756-8514334?v=glance)

[DVaut1]

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Why wern't the swiss mentioned in Bowling for Columbine?

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If I remember correctly, they were mentioned a few times in Bowling for Columbine - Moore didn't come up with any conclusions as to why gun violence was especially prevalent in the US; but he did, on a few occasions, point to the fact that other countries also have ubiquitous gun ownership but don't have the same quantity of violent crimes committed with guns.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...opponents played on Brazilians' fears that the police can't protect them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look at that propaganda. The sentence should read "...opponents played on the fact that police can't protect them."

Has anyone ever attempted to explain why the Swiss have one of the highest firearm ownership rates per capita and yet a very low firearm murder rate? Why wern't the swiss mentioned in Bowling for Columbine?

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No dangerous minorities?

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


Has anyone ever attempted to explain why the Swiss have one of the highest firearm ownership rates per capita and yet a very low firearm murder rate?

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There may be a question of semantics here, since many Swiss don't actually own a gun, but keep a government-issued gun in their houses. One reason for their safety record may be that virtually every gun owner/user goes through extensive firearms training, and fully understands the usage, and consequences of usage, of firearms.

I have taken a number of firearms training classes, and everyone I was involved with, instructors and students, was fanatical about safety and proper usage. People who are serious about guns and about safety and training do not have accidents and are not responsible for gun violence. The cliche is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. The truth is that stupid people kill people with guns.

A big part of this is the movement of the politically correct to try to ban guns, while refusing to promote education about guns and safety. I am of a generation (older than dirt) where firearms education was considered to be a sensible alternative to ignorance. I first learned to shoot in the Boy Scouts, and one of my college P.E. electives was Marksmanship. I'm sure that the rifle range under the stadium of my alma mater has since been converted into an interpretive dance studio.

I have mixed feelings about the NRA, but their education and safety program is top notch. They have a gun safety program for kids that includes a cartoon-type pamphlet teaching kids what to do when they come upon a gun (don't touch it, leave the area immediately, and notify an adult). They distribute this material for free, and many schools won't touch it because of knee-jerk parent and teacher hysteria about anything that the NRA does, and because they seem to think that if they ignore guns, they will all go away.

[Ray Zee]

our(the u.s.) murder rate is high not because of gun ownership but because of cultural reasons. its just that those that chose to own guns and know how to use them are less likely to be one of those murdered.

unfortunately friends and family have a higher chance as well of being murdewred as well as a higher chance of being saved.
you live your life and take your chances in the situation you chose to put yourself in.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
There may be a question of semantics here, since many Swiss don't actually own a gun, but keep a government-issued gun in their houses. One reason for their safety record may be that virtually every gun owner/user goes through extensive firearms training, and fully understands the usage, and consequences of usage, of firearms.



I have taken a number of firearms training classes, and everyone I was involved with, instructors and students, was fanatical about safety and proper usage. People who are serious about guns and about safety and training do not have accidents and are not responsible for gun violence. The cliche is that guns don't kill people, people kill people. The truth is that stupid people kill people with guns.



A big part of this is the movement of the politically correct to try to ban guns, while refusing to promote education about guns and safety. I am of a generation (older than dirt) where firearms education was considered to be a sensible alternative to ignorance. I first learned to shoot in the Boy Scouts, and one of my college P.E. electives was Marksmanship. I'm sure that the rifle range under the stadium of my alma mater has since been converted into an interpretive dance studio.



I have mixed feelings about the NRA, but their education and safety program is top notch. They have a gun safety program for kids that includes a cartoon-type pamphlet teaching kids what to do when they come upon a gun (don't touch it, leave the area immediately, and notify an adult). They distribute this material for free, and many schools won't touch it because of knee-jerk parent and teacher hysteria about anything that the NRA does, and because they seem to think that if they ignore guns, they will all go away.

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Excellent post. Bravo.

I would like to add that long ago, in one of the many previous pro/con gun threads, I advocated that a firearm class should be mandatroy in all American High Schools. The glass would include learning to fire a rife and a pistol, say a .22 Caliber, and include gun safety and training and compeitions etc, along with responsibility and other facts about the history of firearms, both the "good and bad".

Ignorance does not solve problems in my opinion. So just like having sex education in schools, gun education should also be included.

Andy Fox agreed with me wholeheartedly. I think. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Zeno

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
our(the u.s.) murder rate is high not because of gun ownership but because of cultural reasons. its just that those that chose to own guns and know how to use them are less likely to be one of those murdered.

unfortunately friends and family have a higher chance as well of being murdewred as well as a higher chance of being saved.
you live your life and take your chances in the situation you chose to put yourself in.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The "murder rate" usually cited by the media is in fact the gun-death rate, which includes suicides. In a recent op-ed piece in the local St. Paul paper, a gun-control advocate quoted a statistic of 300 gun deaths a year in Minnesota. According to her own numbers, 75% of those were suicides. The individual cases are tragic, but certainly many of them ended a lot of suffering, both for the person and for friends and family. And no one else has the right to pass judgement.

[ACPlayer]

I dont think that a mandatory firearm class in school is appropriate. I certainly would not want to be forced to sit in a class full of testorone loaded oafs pretending that freedoms can be maintained because of a gun in their possession or suggesting that guns are cool.

I do think that a mandatory gun safety class prior to the puchase of a weapon is a great idea. Perhaps an annual refresher should be included as part of the annual registration fee for the weapon.

I will address the matter to various senators forthwith.

I know a number of "estrogen loaded" personages who'd take offense at the first part of your ranting. Not only did you omit mentioning the gun-totin', firearm lovin', gentler gender, you are anti-something-they-find-quite-wonderful.

"Annual registraion fee?" WTF?

As to your forthwithin' - Your state has two senators. Are they anti-gun? Unless they are, your whiny, wimpy plea to "stop the madness that 'r firearms" will be tucked away in the special file they have for such nonsense. The other 98, except those few who feel as you and good ole "If-it-saves-just-one-child Chuck Schumer" do, well, they also have files for nonsense.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ACPlayer]

Actually I am registered to vote in Massachusetts. Home state of your favorite senator(s). /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have residences in both MA and NY- but presently live in Asia.

Zeno's earnest statement to make firearm training MANDATORY at Columbine's school district gave me the brilliant insight of firearm training to be MANDATORY for those buying it and then getting the pieces registered - annually is a good period. Not too much and not too little. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I like the idea -- a lot!

[Cyrus]

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Our (the U.S.) murder rate is high not because of gun ownership but because of cultural reasons.

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Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine made exactly the same point; especailly when it compared statistics between America and Canada.

[etgryphon]

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our(the u.s.) murder rate is high not because of gun ownership but because of cultural reasons. its just that those that chose to own guns and know how to use them are less likely to be one of those murdered.


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Agreed. It is the failure of the "War on Poverty" and the abismal public education of most inner cities. In addition to the fact that most of these "Murder Rates" include suicide like benfranklin says. When we start giving lower income individuals hope and a future instead of handouts and repression, we will see the murder rate fall. Lower income people do not see a future where they are and then they idolize the drug dealers, the pimps, and the gang members because then they fell empowered. Heck, if I grew up in the inner city without a real hope or knowledge how to get out, you bet I would be tempted by the criminal lifestyle. Anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

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unfortunately friends and family have a higher chance as well of being murdewred as well as a higher chance of being saved.
you live your life and take your chances in the situation you chose to put yourself in.

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True. But they have a hundredfold less chance than if they have a swimming pool on the premises. We all choose what we are comfortable with on safety issues.

-Gryph

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our (the U.S.) murder rate is high not because of gun ownership but because of cultural reasons.

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Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine made exactly the same point; especailly when it compared statistics between America and Canada.

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If that was his point, he didn't make it as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly, I watched the movie starting out biased, and looking for flaws in his reasoning. I couldn't find flaws because I couldn't find reasoning. The major theme seemed to be that Canada is a socialist utopia and the USA is a hell-hole of greed merchants.

I was amused by Moore trying to ambush an old man in the early stages of Alzheimers (Heston) in a battle of wits and fighting him to a draw. I felt sorry for both of them.