ATs in SB

[AaronS]

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(8 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Played two loops at table. No good reads, villain seems perhaps a bit loose, but hard to say after 20 hands.

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8.00 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.00 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (11.00 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.00 BB.

Anyone folding preflop?
To the turn raise?

I would 3-bet or fold pre-flop, probebly fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I would check call the turn, players that cold calls a flop rais like that often holds a stronger hand then a pair

[newhizzle]

i probly play it the same, i think preflop is close tho, its looking like it will be somewhat multiway and most COs have a fairly wide range here, so i dont mind calling

Preflop: I like your call here. It's enough of a hand to play for top pair (unless you have a read on CO as a "will only raise premium hands" type of player). And being suited, you actually want to have additional callers to pad the pot if you pick up a flush draw. Reraising here would be wrong, I think. It's call or fold.

Flop: Perfect!

Turn: MP suddently woke up. Not good at all. Since he's a loose goose, he'll play trash hands like J8s or 86s preflop. Maybe he got lucky on the turn with 77. Or maybe he flopped a set and decided to pop you on the turn. My point is... there are A LOT of hands that have you beaten badly, and unless he's extremely aggressive, it's a no-brainer. Fold.

[AaronS]

In retrospect I agree. Any raise from a hand I am beating would be unusual to say the least. Maybe K10 or pair plus flush draw or flush plus straight draw if he is overly aggressive. However, without a read I agree this is a clear fold.

[W. Deranged]

Post-flop play looks great.

Pre-flop is close and really requires a read on the CO. Note that since he's raising behind a limper he's not on a straight steal, and is more likely to have some kind of a hand. Against a legit early or middle position raiser, this hand is almost always a fold out of the small blind since the discount and the lack of position is hardly enough to make up for the likelihood of domination (...you would fold it in late position behind an EP raiser, so you should fold it in the SB...) If you think CO might be raising light then I think you might be able to call profitably. But be careful. I disagree that pre-flop you should raise or fold. With the limper and the MP player left to act, you are not that likely to get this heads-up anyway, and raising may just mean you're putting in extra when dominated and out of position. (It's also nice, as this hand demonstrates, to be able to check-raise the late position better on a flop you like; it's harder to do this if you raise pre-flop.)

I'm folding to the turn raise. There is not much you have beat here. He either made his straight, or flopped a set.

[ QUOTE ]
Post-flop play looks great.

[/ QUOTE ]
On the turn, Hero is getting 5-to-1 on his call. Not much. AND there's a good chance that he's drawing dead. If you ask me, given the action, it should be fairly obvious that he's up against a better hand. What kind of a player would raise with a lesser hand after Hero has shown so much strength? It would take one hell of a read to make me put in two more big bets in this pot, that's for sure.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding to the turn raise. There is not much you have beat here. He either made his straight, or flopped a set.

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We have no reads, and there is only one reasonably unlikely straight out there. This might be a good spot to find a fold, but always folding TPTK to a turn raise is playing much too tight-weak in my opinion. Notice that there are plenty of two pairs hands here that are at least as likely (in terms of villain's likely pre-flop standards) as the straights are, and we have tons of outs against two pair. Villain might be raising something like 88 because he's now made a draw. He could be waiting until the turn to raise a nice turn card with a hand like JT. He could be totally full of it and think he can take the pot away from you. There are tons of things a not-that-good, not-that-rational small stakes player could have.

With a read, I think folding here is okay.

Without a read, I'm calling this down most all the time in an online game and I'm happy to do so.

With no read at all, I think this is a fold. It's a rare player who would come out raising this turn with just a pair after cold calling the flop. He's got 2 pair or better.

[ QUOTE ]
With no read at all, I think this is a fold. It's a rare player who would come out raising this turn with just a pair after cold calling the flop. He's got 2 pair or better.

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If we fold now then the observant boys are gonna take note and test you with turn raises later on. With no reads who's to say he's not a LAG and you're winning easily so far. While I agree that when I call I expect to be shown the winning hand, I think you'll be shown a draw or some crap enough times to make it worth calling.

[AaronS]

If we call the turn here, what's our plan on the river? Check/call? Check/fold?

I'm sucking it up and check calling

[crazygoose]

You are getting 10:1 on that turn. I don't want to do the math but I think you are drawing dead enough here to fold without a better read.

[krimson]

I think pre-flop is okay, but I would be extremely cautious if you catch the ace. There is a reasonable chance that the CO has a good hand since he raised behind a limper. Someone mentioned 3-betting out of the sb, but I think that's a bit overkill. We have a decent mutli-way hand so I would just call and invite the BB to come along too.

The rest of the hand is pretty standard imo. Not much you can do but call down after the turn raise without any reads.

[TheHammer24]

I don't find a fold here. I would like a read on LP raiser but anything over 7% pfr I think this is a pretty safe call/3-bet especially if the limper is bad and the raiser knows it.

Folding the tunr is super weak tight. He could have KT, JT, a lot of hands here if he's overagressive and too loose. The calling the flop cold and raising the turn is kind of scary though if he is a thinking player.

Moral of the story: WE NEED READS!

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting 10:1 on that turn. I don't want to do the math but I think you are drawing dead enough here to fold without a better read.

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You are thinking about this hand backwards.

Don't think about this as: we need a read to justify calling down. We have TPTK on a fairly innocuous board. We are getting like 11-2 on a calldown here, which means we need to have the best hand at showdown less than 20% of the time here to merit calling down.

Realize that the risky play here is folding , not calling down. The 11 BB we potential forfeit by laying down a strong hand is more substantial than the 2 BB we risk by going to showdown. In situations where there really aren't that many hands which are beating us, and the pot is reasonably big, the burden of proof (for me, at least) lies on the fold side, not the call side. It's a calldown for me until proven otherwise.

It's one of those poker cliches that "good players look for reasons to fold." This is true to a great degree, particularly on pre-flop play and when drawing and so forth (and in NL hold'em). But this idea can be taken too far. In a live game with a very strong read, there are plenty of times all fold this. But against an unknown online or against anyone who's shown any amount of trickiness, I'm calling down here.