A9s steal in SB, anything I should I do different?

[emitch]

Very loose table, this hand was very unusual with no callers. Looked like a perfect steal opportunity, except for one thing, usually these guys won't fold. When the flop is low, they notice it and don't give any respect to the preflop raiser. Unfortunately, I have not been able to catch a good pocket pair to punish this.

Button is very loose (50%+), raises preflop some, but hardly ever shows aggression post flop unless checked to by the preflop raiser. The whole table has been calling down and will bet with any small pp or any ace if checked to.

In this session, it has become painfully obvious that I play these types of hands poorly, especially against 4 or 5 players when they don't hit. Against only 1 or 2 opponents, was this play correct or just drop it when he goes into calldown mode. If I check he WILL bet but will not raise with 90+ confidence.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

I can only put these two on random hands at this point. They will play about 50% of their hands. I don't really think that I am going to steal right here but with a flop bet, I might take it. Is this enough of a hand to steal with?

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Against many players, I would like this flop, but with these guys it could be anything. But I am sticking to the plan and bet.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Meh, the call most likely means that I am behind, but I am lost at this point.

River: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

I check hoping he is just calling down, but he bets out as normal on this type of board. Is this a terrible call or does the possible split (maybe even win) make it worth it.

Final Pot: 8 BB

This and missed overcards are kicking my ars. Maybe just frustration today because I usually don't miss this many in a row, but somebody help me out here.

Thanks,

mitch

Seems fine up to the river. I dont know whats the best line there. Check fold, Bet fold, Check call all seem resonable. I am leaning towards bet fold.

[POKhER]

From your read it seems like a table i was at today interms of respect/hands played.

Do you have any pt stats or any examples/Ideas if they go to SD with nothing? High cards? OESDdraws(Morons)?

If no, i think i may fold the river... very tempting to call.

[emitch]

Yeah, I would say that somewhere around 50% of the hands that were low boards like this had at least one donk (in this case me), that showed down with ace high, I actually saw an 8 high win on a double paired board earlier. Maybe it wasn't really that high, because stuff like that really sticks in your mind and as I said earlier, overcards were killing me today. It really sucks when you get a table this good and can't hit anything.

I probably lost a buy in on missed overcards today. I looked at my WSD and W$SD and they are very low, but I know that these types of hands can be played better than I have been doing.

With position, a preflop raise, no aggression from anyone else, and an uncoordinated board is the proper play flop bet, turn bet, river check behind or is it weak.

Without position, is it flop bet, turn check/fold (depending on pot odds of coarse), and river check fold (unless you have a good read that the opponent is a bluffer)

I really thought I was starting to get a good hold on overcards, but today has really opened my eyes.

thanks

mitch

[xenthebrain]

Against these guys I'd play it the same.
You have good reasons to think that your hand is often good on flop and turn (it's real hard to hit these board). On the river I value-bet the guys that call down with KQ UI and c/c the guys that bluff their UI 2 random cards when its checked to them on the river.

These guys are quite common in 6max.

*grunch*
With the loosey gooseys this is more a value raise than a steal attempt.
Flop- good
Turn - good
River - Bet\fold. If you're going to call his bet, this costs exactly the same and occasionally you will fold a better hand.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
River - Bet\fold. If you're going to call his bet, this costs exactly the same and occasionally you will fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
The question here is if he would call with a worse hand.
If he would a bet is correct, if he only would call with a hand we would beat not.
In that case, when we have a read on villian that he bets more hand than he calls with a c/c is better.

I should have said equal hand, not better.

hero wins 3 bets if villian folds an equal hand.
hero wins 1 more bet if villian bluffs (after hero checks).

I think this is what it comes down to:
A vs B
A.chance villian folds equal hand/3 + chance he calls with worse hand
B.chance villian bluffs + chance villian has better hand.

If A is bigger - bet\fold
If B is bigger - check\call

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Looked like a perfect steal opportunity, except for one thing, usually these guys won't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a little silly to go for a "steal" without a particularly strong hand against blinds that don't fold. Oh, and the "other" thing...there's already one hand in the pot, so it can't be a steal (and you probably won't fold him, either). I don't hate the raise as a value raise against bad players, but don't kid yourself that you're stealing.

After that, the hand is enormously ordinary (and even the preflop stuff is ordinary, I just want to make sure you're not raising for the wrong reasons). On the river, you want to see a showdown, so don't take a bet/fold line. He's clearly not folding to a bet, so avoid the possibility of paying 2 bets to showdown and check/call. Nice hand.

[xenthebrain]

Button will not fold an ace in this spot. The board is double paired.

It really comes down to the play that gains most bets on the river.

If you bet and he always folds when you have him beat and he only calls when the pot is split or he has you beat, a bet would be clearly -EV. You would never gain one bet, but sometimes you would lose one bet. This applies when he is not the guy who would call down with any two cards just to see your cards and keep you honest.

If you check and he would bet all hands that beat you (or maybe sometimes even check behind with a hand that beats you) or ties, but also would bluff sometimes you gain this bet.

[sean c]

Hi Mitch i usually just complete with thes types of hands in the small blind against loose players. The pot is small, you are out of position, a raise will not win this hand right away and your probably going to need to make a hand to win. Also it is not required to bet both streets just because you raised pre flop i probably would have bet the flop and check/folded the turn and waited for a better spot to value bet the hell out of these monkeys.

[Ray Zee]

you are okay as long as you understand your raise was meant to knock out the BB and wasnt a raise because you had a good hand.
when you raise you need to know for what reason you are doing it.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
you are okay as long as you understand your raise was meant to knock out the BB and wasnt a raise because you had a good hand.
when you raise you need to know for what reason you are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also just for equity even if BB does come along.