Circumcise my baby boy? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 05:25 PM

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There are no realistic health issues involved. The majority of people have been uncircumcised since people were invented, and the entire animal kingdom gets by fine without circumcision.

Be aware -- asking this question is like asking guys if they like their penis. It's a subject more fit for instinctive and deeply felt reactions than discussion. You're not going to get a lot of circumcised people saying it's unnecessary or somehow not the best idea. The impact of religion and culture on the issue is pretty overwhelmingly determinative, too. Match up cultural and religious norms with deeply personal self-consciousness on a primal level, and you're just not going to get a lot of people saying let's call the whole thing off.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Do you like your penis?" - Oooooh, good idea for my next poll!

Seriously though, good points. This is why these results are non-binding - sorry Jake.

mslif

10-23-2005, 05:26 PM

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Chicks are afraid of uncircumcised ones.

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Nah. I would not say they are afraid of them. I think women in general prefer circumcised ones. I find this amusing since this is not the way a penis was meant to look like.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT? Is this true?

You're talking about America, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, I am talking about Americans. We all know european women are different.

diebitter

10-23-2005, 05:27 PM

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yes, I am talking about Americans. We all know european women are different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen and hail Mary!

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 05:32 PM

Uncut men - let's talk cleanliness.

Pain in the ass to clean? You ever get cock-stench? Ever get an infection?

JihadOnTheRiver

10-23-2005, 05:35 PM

Haven't you ever seen a porn with uncircumcized guys in it? That [censored] just looks awkward. Snip it now, he'll never know the diffence. You say your athiests, if I were you I'd have one of those Jewish ceremonies, but just cause for some reason I see humor in it.

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 05:35 PM

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Uncut men - let's talk cleanliness.

Pain in the ass to clean? You ever get cock-stench? Ever get an infection?

[/ QUOTE ]

This really should not be a concern for you whatsoever. It's insignificant, I've bever had any sort of problem whatsoever.

diebitter

10-23-2005, 05:36 PM

PITA to clean - No, you clean when you clean that area anyway.

Stench - Nope, unless you don't stay clean or masturbate excessively. er, I've heard...

Infection - Nope, unless you don't stay clean.

Eurotrash

10-23-2005, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uncut men - let's talk cleanliness.

Pain in the ass to clean? You ever get cock-stench? Ever get an infection?

[/ QUOTE ]

This really should not be a concern for you whatsoever. It's insignificant, I've bever had any sort of power whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 05:38 PM

If you decided to go through with it, do me a favor and watch it.

jason_t

10-23-2005, 05:38 PM

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 05:39 PM

You caught me before I edited it, this is what I get for watching football while typing.

jason_t

10-23-2005, 05:39 PM

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I think you should have him circumcised. I have heard that boys can be very mean in school to other boys who are uncircumcised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not experience this.

ononimo

10-23-2005, 05:39 PM

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Chicks are afraid of uncircumcised ones.

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This is very false.

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maybe but i think circumcision is the "safer" play.

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 05:40 PM

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I think you should have him circumcised. I have heard that boys can be very mean in school to other boys who are uncircumcised.

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I did not experience this.

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Neither did I.

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif my foreskin.

jason_t

10-23-2005, 05:41 PM

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I think you should have him circumcised. I have heard that boys can be very mean in school to other boys who are uncircumcised.

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I did not experience this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither did I.

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif my foreskin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. And lots of girls do too.

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 05:42 PM

Has anyone ever been denied sex because of the presence of a foreskin?

gorie

10-23-2005, 05:42 PM

dear jason_t,

i am afraid of your weiner.

sincerely,
gorie

jakethebake

10-23-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1.) Because his daddy is circumcised and he's going to identify with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

mushi

10-23-2005, 05:43 PM

Ill begin by saying that I am jew so I am bias in a way b/c all my familey and most of my friends (I leave in Israel) are cirucmsized.

Leaving aside religion and health issues which have been discussed before.

I understand from your post that you are circumsized. So heres the deal. I knew a jewish guy who was going to get married with a non jewish girl and he wanted to circumsize his son. His reason beeing that he wants his son to has the same as him (as stupid as it sounds it might be a point). At the end they had a daughter, baptised her and called her Maria.

God works in mysterious ways

mushi /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif

jason_t

10-23-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dear jason_t,

i am afraid of your weiner.

sincerely,
gorie

[/ QUOTE ]

but but... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's a subject more fit for instinctive and deeply felt reactions than discussion. You're not going to get a lot of circumcised people saying it's unnecessary or somehow not the best idea. The impact of religion and culture on the issue is pretty overwhelmingly determinative, too. Match up cultural and religious norms with deeply personal self-consciousness on a primal level, and you're just not going to get a lot of people saying let's call the whole thing off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting how the responses of both questions are so closely correlated...good call Blarg!

mslif

10-23-2005, 05:45 PM

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I think you should have him circumcised. I have heard that boys can be very mean in school to other boys who are uncircumcised.

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I did not experience this.

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As I said, I have heard of it. Obviously I would not know for a fact.

bwana devil

10-23-2005, 05:57 PM

im seriously struggling w/ the same problem. my friends think im an idiot and cant understand why im even considering not doing it. seems like the US trend is finally swinging toward the european ways and it wont be all that unusual for boys not to be circumsized.

i am circumsized and am glad i am because i wouldnt want the ladies to have jumped when my pants came down. but seems like times they are a changing. im w/ you and will be doing more research on the matter.

btw do you mean youre indifferent on the matter rather than ambivalent?

bwana

man

10-23-2005, 05:58 PM

I'm uncut. it rules. I would never circumcise my kid because it's not necessary. apparently uncircumsized people are more likely to transmit HIV, and are more likely to get infections. but the correlation is pretty small.

wikipedia rules:

circumcision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision)

medical analysis of circumcision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision)

I think the "why am I not like daddy" argument is pretty strong here. but do what feels right, I guess.

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 06:00 PM

Exitonly

10-23-2005, 06:03 PM

Is there any downside to getting it done?

The downsides may be incredibly small for not getting it done, but they exist. (Cleaning/infections/"being different") I'm not saying that any of those thigns matter at all, or ever exist really. But are there any potential downsides to getting it done?

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 06:04 PM

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btw do you mean youre indifferent on the matter rather than ambivalent?

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Well kinda both. Indifferent because it's not a big deal either way and ambivalent because I keep going back and forth. My ego wants my boy to have the same pretty pecker as his dad, but logic is pointing towards leaving him whole.

Dex

10-23-2005, 06:04 PM

I voted you should not circumcise him.

I am circumcised.

Yes, my penis is "fine", works well, and using it is enjoyable. Some of it is missing though, and nobody asked me if that's the way I wanted it or not.

How do I know what it should have been like? I will never know.

Yes, my dad is circumcised too, so I "look like him". So what?

Do some searching and read about what actually happens during a circumcision procedure. Find a reference that shows pictures, if possible, so you can see what would actually be done to your son. Anesthetic is not always used. It's not as if you can just roll back the foreskin and snip it off, either; a newborn's foreskin is actually attached to the head of the penis, so they essentially have to tear the foreskin away from the head before they cut it off.

I find it interesting that, in America, the idea of a female having her clitoral hood removed at birth disgusts most people, yet the idea of a male having his foreskin removed at birth is widely accepted and practiced, and nobody bats an eye. It's the same damn thing.

If you do not circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he really does not like it, he can always have it done later if he decides that it's worth it. But it will be HIS decision.

If you do circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he rather would not have been, there isn't anything he can do about it. You have taken the decision away from him.

Also, although rare, hope that they don't botch the procedure if you do have it done.

Nick-Zack

10-23-2005, 06:05 PM

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You're talking about America, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just assume that all conversations are talking about America and you will be right.

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 06:05 PM

I dunno, how about chopping part of your infant son's dick off? That seems like a bit of a downside.

man

10-23-2005, 06:05 PM

I've heard cutting the skin stunts its growth. I'm sure this is a myth. I've also heard that uncut penises are more sensitive. this is definately true. try pulling it back, putting on jeans, and walking more than ten paces. like, ow.

Jack of Arcades

10-23-2005, 06:06 PM

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If you do circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he rather would not have been, there isn't anything he can do about it. You have taken the decision away from him.

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This isn't entirely true. Anybody can stretch out their skin and essentially turn it into a new foreskin.

jason_t

10-23-2005, 06:09 PM

10-23-2005, 06:10 PM

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dear jason_t,

i am afraid of your weiner.

sincerely,
gorie

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

jason_t

10-23-2005, 06:11 PM

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dear jason_t,

i am afraid of your weiner.

sincerely,
gorie

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Love,

You're european. You are not.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif,
Jason.

Jeff W

10-23-2005, 06:12 PM

Circumcision is a crime. Do some research.

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:14 PM

I say no.

Do you have a reason to do so? Is there ANY reason you are considering doing this other than "I'm cut and it's fine" or "hey everyone else is?" No, I doubt it. Why are you LOOKING for a reason?

Boys teasing him? By the time your boy is old enough to be in a situation where he's naked around other dudes, he should be man to not care what other guys think of his penis. If it bothers him, that's your fault as a dad. I wouldn't be concerned about this either.

Sensitivity? Well-documented fact that the head loses sensitivity in cut vs. uncut guys. I'm not sure if there's any way to "measure" the degree of the difference (since you can't miss what you never knew, and since it would take years after being cut later in life to lose the same amount of sensitivity).

Cleanliness? Um, retract skin, soap, wash, return skin to normal. Adds less than a minute to the shower routine.

My suggestion to you is to leave it alone. If he wants to be cut later in life, that's up to him. Let him make his own decision when he's old enough to make it.

Also, try to make him have a really big dick. That will help him avoid getting teased by other boys.

Blarg

10-23-2005, 06:15 PM

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Uncut men - let's talk cleanliness.

Pain in the ass to clean? You ever get cock-stench? Ever get an infection?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. There's nothing to it. If a dog can get by fine, it shows how little care is needed.

Never the slightest problem of any kind. You would have to go extremely out of your way to be unclean enough to get any kind of problem. Even if you live in the tropics, where I grew up, and sweated like a pig every day all day long.

If you're circumcised, just hold your dork so the head pops out of the foreskin, give it a couple shakes when you're done, and you're good. It takes a little more care than an uncircumcised one would, but not so you'd really notice.

As to locker room trauma, anything's possible. But I went to a school with incredible and vicious bullying, and though I was neither one of the bigger nor more popular kids, nothing was made of it. I'd worry more about the trauma of naming my kid something stupid.

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:16 PM

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This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

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Who the heck models his cock for his kid?

I'm 24 and I don't have any information regarding my dad's penis.

Blarg

10-23-2005, 06:16 PM

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If you decided to go through with it, do me a favor and watch it.

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Agreed. Anyone who has this done to his kid should have to watch it, if not do it himself.

Blarg

10-23-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I think you should have him circumcised. I have heard that boys can be very mean in school to other boys who are uncircumcised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not experience this.

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Neither did I.

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif my foreskin.

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Me too. And lots of girls do too.

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Having a foreskin increases sensation during sex. For the men, anyway. Not a bad deal.

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 06:19 PM

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Do you have a reason to do so? Is there ANY reason you are considering doing this other than "I'm cut and it's fine" or "hey everyone else is?" No, I doubt it. Why are you LOOKING for a reason?

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Not really looking for a reason to cut. Just want to make an informed decision. As a circumsised male, I don't know what it's like to have a pink ninja, so I want to hear from those who do.

Good post, btw.

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:20 PM

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apparently uncircumsized people are more likely to transmit HIV, and are more likely to get infections. but the correlation is pretty small.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first time I heard that I almost lost it laughing. Even if that is true, isn't avoiding unprotected sex with infected partners is a far better way to avoid transmitting HIV than cutting off a piece of one's penis with a sharp object???

"Why am I not like daddy?" argument is the weakest IMO.

A simple reply to why am I not like daddy is "daddy's parents decided to have him cut. we heard that there are some benefits to not doing this, and actually no real benefits to doing it, so we thought you should make that decision for yourself when you are older."

jakethebake

10-23-2005, 06:21 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

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Who the heck models his cock for his kid?

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This is funny. But, uh yea, most little kids do see their parents naked.

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:23 PM

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This is funny. But, uh yea, most little kids do see their parents naked.

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I totally did not know this.

Wow.

I wish I didn't know this... well, except for maybe this one dude I know. His mom is hot. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Blarg

10-23-2005, 06:24 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
1.) Because his daddy is circumcised and he's going to identify with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that this is the only possible reason, but it's still not a good one.

Kids accept everything at face value, utterly convinced. You can tell them crazy stuff, like that their Dad is the smartest guy in the world, and they'll believe it. Or that hell exists, or that some carpenter 2000 years ago was actually the magical son of God, who magically made everything we see. You can practically kill them by telling them the boogie man lives under their bed. Having a dong that looks a little different from your dad's is pretty small change on the child's list of wonders.

My stepdad was circumcised, by the way, and his kids weren't. They saw each other naked uncountable times, and it was never a matter of interest.

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 06:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the heck models his cock for his kid?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is funny. But, uh yea, most little kids do see their parents naked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, I look forward to peeing in unison with my boy and impressing him with my bubblemaking ability. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-23-2005, 06:26 PM

Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:27 PM

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Haven't you ever seen a porn with uncircumcized guys in it? That [censored] just looks awkward.

[/ QUOTE ]

For all you know, you might have seen tons of porn with uncircumcized guys in it and just haven't been able to tell the difference since an uncircumcized erect penis looks the same as a circumcized one when you pull the skin back.

Dex

10-23-2005, 06:29 PM

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If you do circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he rather would not have been, there isn't anything he can do about it. You have taken the decision away from him.

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This isn't entirely true. Anybody can stretch out their skin and essentially turn it into a new foreskin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have fun removing and replacing your skin stretching apparatus every time you have to take a piss. For, probably, several years.

Have fun every time your skin tears and you have to stop for a week to let it heal. For, probably, several years.

The skin that is grown back by this process does not include all of the nerve endings and specialized skin that circumcision removes.

tom441lbk

10-23-2005, 06:29 PM

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Haven't you ever seen a porn with uncircumcized guys in it? That [censored] just looks awkward.

[/ QUOTE ]

For all you know, you might have seen tons of porn with uncircumcized guys in it and just haven't been able to tell the difference since an uncircumcized erect penis looks the same as a circumcized one when you pull the skin back.

[/ QUOTE ]

holy shat?!?!?!? you mean i've been watching UNCIRCUMCISED dudes have sex??!!?

FREAKING NaSTY!

Warik

10-23-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Have fun removing and replacing your skin stretching apparatus every time you have to take a piss. For, probably, several years.

Have fun every time your skin tears and you have to stop for a week to let it heal. For, probably, several years.

[/ QUOTE ]

And have fun having it not look the same as it would have naturally when you're done.

Oh, and have fun not getting back any of the lose sensitivity after all of that hard, painful work.

ChipWrecked

10-23-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.) Because his daddy is circumcised and he's going to identify with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that this is the only possible reason, but it's still not a good one.

Kids accept everything at face value, utterly convinced. You can tell them crazy stuff, like that their Dad is the smartest guy in the world, and they'll believe it. Or that hell exists, or that some carpenter 2000 years ago was actually the magical son of God, who magically made everything we see. You can practically kill them by telling them the boogie man lives under their bed. Having a dong that looks a little different from your dad's is pretty small change on the child's list of wonders.

My stepdad was circumcised, by the way, and his kids weren't. They saw each other naked uncountable times, and it was never a matter of interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

A boy and his dad are having a shower.
"Dad, what's that?"
"That's my penis, son, and it's a perfect one."
A few days later the boy is hanging out with his friends. The subject of penises comes up.
"The other day, I saw my dad's. And if mine was an inch shorter, it'd be a perfect one!"

Blarg

10-23-2005, 06:43 PM

Heh, I wish I were that kid. My brother is that kid.

10-23-2005, 06:54 PM

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Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a woman, I think you guys are jumping the gun a little here. You're assuming that a decent female is actually going to want to touch that nasty thing! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

diebitter

10-23-2005, 06:56 PM

Well, guys are often a triumph of optimism over reality.

dibbs

10-23-2005, 07:02 PM

Yes. Women freakout about the other ones and having that done later in life is more complicated as far as I know.

MikeNaked

10-23-2005, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a woman, I think you guys are jumping the gun a little here. You're assuming that a decent female is actually going to want to touch that nasty thing! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the interesting correlation between circumcision and propensity to circumcise, I am also amazed by the dearth of women in OOT. Well not really amazed but more, like, disturbed...

Anyway, I'd like to hear more women chime in on the subject. I suspect they're usually just as slurpy for natural cocks as circumcised ones.

astroglide

10-23-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

prove it

Dex

10-23-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a woman, I think you guys are jumping the gun a little here. You're assuming that a decent female is actually going to want to touch that nasty thing! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Should "decent males" not want to touch your "nasty" uncircumcised parts?

There's nothing "nasty" about it, unless the guy doesn't practice good personal hygiene. But circumcised guys can fail to practice good hygiene and be "nasty" too. See all the recent "my balls smell and I haven't showered in three days" threads. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Blarg

10-23-2005, 07:10 PM

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Well, guys are often a triumph of optimism over reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Second marriage -- the triumph of optimism over experience."

Dex

10-23-2005, 07:14 PM

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Circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the penis. Thus, less enjoyable sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

prove it

[/ QUOTE ]

Nerve endings are removed.

Prove it doesn't.

Warik

10-23-2005, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
prove it

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The circumcised penis loses sensitivity in three ways:

1. Loss of the foreskin nerves themselves. As has been demonstrated by studies such as the one by Dr. Taylor and by the testimonials of the majority of intact men, the inner foreskin possesses a greater density of nerve endings. It is thought to be more erogenous than even the glans. The is no question that the foreskin is a highly erogenous tissue. This tremendous amount of sensitivity is lost completely when the forefold of the skin system is amputated. In addition to this, the most sensitive part of the penis, the frenulum of the foreskin, is either partially or totally removed in most infant circumcisions. The frenulum is the continuation of the inner foreskin which attaches to the underside (ventral part) of the glans. Thus, a significant percentage, if not the majority, of erogenous nerve supply to the penis is removed in circumcision at birth.

2. Damage to the glans. The erogenous sensitivity that remains after circumcision is primarily in the glans. This is further reduced by removal of the protective foreskin which leaves the glans permanently exposed. Unlike the shaft of the penis, and most of the rest of the body, the head of the penis, does not posses its own attached skin. This structure, like the eye ball and the gums of the mouth, is a somewhat naked structure. Its surface is non-keratinized, like that of the gums, the eye ball, and the clitoris in women. That means that it does not posses a protective thick layer like the keratinized skin of the outer penile skin system. Like the gums and the eye ball, the glans of the intact penis has a retractible skin covering. The skin covering of the glans is the foreskin. The eyelid is very similar in architecture to the foreskin. If the eyelid were removed and the eyeball were to become keratinized, you'd have a much harder time seeing. The same is true of the glans. It becomes artificially keratinized (dry, ha rdened, discolored, and wrinkled) as a result of permanent exposure, and thus less sensitive. Because most American men are circumcised and have a glans of this nature, it is harder to notice the abnormality. But just compare the glans of an intact man with that of a circumcised man next to each other and you'll notice a big difference. Thus, in addition to removing lots of erogenous nerve endings in the inner foreskin and frenulum, circumcision further desensitizes the remaining sensitivity of the glans by leaving it exposed.

3. Loss of skin mobility. The nerve endings in the glans are predominantly complex touch receptors also known as mechanoreceptors. This is different from the light touch receptors of the skin which detect surface friction. The mechanorecptors are best stimulated by massage action rather than surface friction. Thus, the glans is best stimulated to feel pleasure by a rolling massage action. With an ample and highly mobile skin system that rolls over the glans with pressure from the opposing surface, this optimal stimulation of the glans is achieved while avoiding direct friction of the delicate glans surface. Direct friction tends to fire off pain receptors causing irritation and also causes further keratinization of the glans. With the skin system of the penis significantly reduced by circumcision, the mobility is essentially gone and now the penis is a static mass with no dynamic self stimulation mechanism. Now, it must be rubbed. Direct friction is now the primary form of stimulation. So then circumcision further reduces erogenous sensitivity in the penis by reducing skin mobility and thus the ability to use the foreskin to massage the glans. The combination of foreskin and glans in concert results in an even higher level of stimulation which is unknown to the circumcised male.

[/ QUOTE ]

source (http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/garcia)

cokehead

10-23-2005, 07:19 PM

http://www.webmagician.com/pubservice/circ_effects.html

10-23-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There's nothing "nasty" about it, unless the guy doesn't practice good personal hygiene. But circumcised guys can fail to practice good hygiene and be "nasty" too. See all the recent "my balls smell and I haven't showered in three days" threads. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean uncircumcised smelled nasty or were unhygenic even if the man took care of himself. I meant that they looked nasty. Just my opinion as a cockaseuer. And I'll skip those unshowered ball threads! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Blarg

10-23-2005, 07:36 PM

I would expect many, perhaps most American women to say this. People tend to like best what they're used to.

Go to Europe and it's the mirror image.

JihadOnTheRiver

10-23-2005, 07:36 PM

You can uaully tell very quickly if the talent is snipped or not. If you can't tell right away, once he pops you sure can.

mslif

10-23-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would expect many, perhaps most American women to say this. People tend to like best what they're used to.

Go to Europe and it's the mirror image.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.

brick

10-23-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I voted you should not circumcise him.

I am circumcised.

Yes, my penis is "fine", works well, and using it is enjoyable. Some of it is missing though, and nobody asked me if that's the way I wanted it or not.

How do I know what it should have been like? I will never know.

Yes, my dad is circumcised too, so I "look like him". So what?

Do some searching and read about what actually happens during a circumcision procedure. Find a reference that shows pictures, if possible, so you can see what would actually be done to your son. Anesthetic is not always used. It's not as if you can just roll back the foreskin and snip it off, either; a newborn's foreskin is actually attached to the head of the penis, so they essentially have to tear the foreskin away from the head before they cut it off.

I find it interesting that, in America, the idea of a female having her clitoral hood removed at birth disgusts most people, yet the idea of a male having his foreskin removed at birth is widely accepted and practiced, and nobody bats an eye. It's the same damn thing.

If you do not circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he really does not like it, he can always have it done later if he decides that it's worth it. But it will be HIS decision.

If you do circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he rather would not have been, there isn't anything he can do about it. You have taken the decision away from him.

Also, although rare, hope that they don't botch the procedure if you do have it done.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts exactly. also, it's not like dad and son need to be comparing penises.

why intorduce the risk of severe scaring, skin bridges, etc.

gorie

10-23-2005, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I'd like to hear more women chime in on the subject. I suspect they're usually just as slurpy for natural cocks as circumcised ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can definitely understand the argument against circumcision, i am not sure why the practice even exists in the first place.

i do think uncircumcised penises look weird and scare me a little. but i've never been with a guy that was not circumcised (that doesn't mean much), and never really see uncircumsized penises, so i assume my preference has a lot to do with just liking what i am familiar with as "normal" to me. if that makes sense. or maybe it's just what looks better. either way that doesn't mean much when it comes to being a reason to do it.

i am not sure the sensitivity issue is as big of a deal as it sounds though since most guys that are circumsized can still orgasm in like 2 minutes anyway. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif but again that doesn't make it right.

10-23-2005, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would expect many, perhaps most American women to say this. People tend to like best what they're used to.

Go to Europe and it's the mirror image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's definately what you're culturally used to.

renodoc

10-23-2005, 10:01 PM

Haven't read the whole thread, but have gone through the thought process a few years ago (the boy is 3 1/2)

Lots of reasons NOT to cut the kid. One good one would be to go to the nursery and watch the pediatrician do the procedure. Yuck. All of the other stated reasons in the thread seemed valid to me. My wife's male family is uncut and they swear by it. Also, if the kid wants to do it later when he is in his teens or twenties then he can do it and its his choice.

KneeCo

10-23-2005, 10:14 PM

I wouldn't do it for the simple reason that there is no good reason to do it. If you however are inclined to cut up your child because it seems to be in fashion, it's your option.

If you have the chance, check out the episode of Penn & Teller's BullS**t on the topic (Season 3, Episode 1). It's quite good.

(If you haven't seen the show, it's basically a weekly debunking of a debated issue, and is always impressively researched).

RunDownHouse

10-23-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
solid page of "proving it"

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if astro is going to bother showing up in this thread again...

slickpoppa

10-23-2005, 10:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't you ever seen a porn with uncircumcized guys in it? That [censored] just looks awkward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, this is the best reason mentioned so far. Don't you want your son becoming a porn star?

Sightless

10-23-2005, 10:28 PM

All I can say is watch Penn and Teller Episode on circumcision...

Irieguy

10-23-2005, 10:52 PM

I am an obstetrician and have performed over 200 circumcisions. So, I have had this conversation with numerous families and am aware of the medical literature. I'll give you the basics in case it is helpful (both pros and cons):

1. The circumcision procedure is not particularly gruesome or painful. It takes me 90 seconds and some infants hardly cry. Most infants cry harder, and longer, when they have their heel sticks done for blood tests. It's not likely that it bothers them more than being born.

2. There is no compelling medical reason to have your infant circumcised.

3. Penile cancer (lifetime) and urinary tract infections in the first 2 years of life are less common in circumcised males. But both are so uncommon that it is not a very important consideration from a statistical standpoint.

4. It is easier to clean a circumcised penis. It is also not very difficult to clean an uncircumcised one, but this is a concern for some mothers.

5. The argument "he can always get a circumcision later if he wants to," is the single worst argument against circumcision that exists.

6. Circumcision is more common in America than non-circumcision and most humans prefer to be common when it comes to matters concerning their sexual organs.

7. Most American women, when polled, will say that they prefer circumcised males.

8. The arguments that "the penis was not meant to be circumcised" or that the intervention is "unnatural" are very flimsy in a modern society. Armpit and genital hair were not meant to be removed, and artificial scents were not "meant" to be applied to the female body, but there does seem to be a social convention for sexuality that involves altering our natural appearance... right or wrong.

9. An uncircumcised male is unlikely to ever endure any significant emotional trauma or relationship difficulty solely due to his uncircumcised state.

10. Some infants will develop a condition called phimosis, where the foreskin contracts and can no longer be retracted over the head of the penis. This sucks and requires circumcision later in childhood or infancy. This condition is common enough, and a big enough deal, that it would be the compelling reason for me to choose circumcision for my son if all other factors were completely equal.

Irieguy

BottlesOf

10-23-2005, 11:00 PM

This post is far level headed and informative for OOT.

Exitonly

10-23-2005, 11:05 PM

Nice post. That was really interesting, i actually am going to bookmark that, and this isnt a decision i'll have to make for another few years atleast. (Barring some accident)

daryn

10-23-2005, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is probably the only legitimate reason. You don't want his first thoughts about his penis to be, "Why do I look different than daddy? Is there something wrong with me?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Who the heck models his cock for his kid?

I'm 24 and I don't have any information regarding my dad's penis.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was going to say this exact same thing

Blarg

10-23-2005, 11:15 PM

Addressing some of your points:

1. With all due respect, I don't think any of us are in a position to judge the pain. As to gruesomeness, this is certainly entirely subjective. To me, it's barbaric; to some, it's not only not barbaric but a positive boon. Gruesomeness is not a purely medical judgment in this case.

4. If cleaning your kid is a problem to a mother, it's time to grow up and get over it. Your kid's penis won't bite you, and it's not hard to clean.

5. I agree that the ability to get a circumcision later is not a reason to either get or not get a circumcision now. Circumcisions later in life are much more painful, and by the time one is older, the desire to change probably won't come up unless one is making a religious conversion.

8. Your arguments comparing circumcision to using underarm deodorant are extremely silly. Nobody has to cut or remove pieces from any organs at all, much less sex organs, to smell better. Furthermore, at least putting on a deodorant addresses an extant problem. Being uncircumcised is not a "problem."

10. European kids are not having significant amounts of phimosis problems and requiring circumcision, nor are they in the rest of the world, which in the majority is uncircumcised. Potential phimosis is not a realistic concern.

A number of your points focus on social acceptance. Some, like points 6 and 7, seem to tread the same ground. I think you've put undue emphasis on that. Social acceptance considerations are minor, and it's doubtful they are worth the space and repetition you give them. I wouldn't put the chances of sexual rejection because someone is uncircumcised very high at all. Vanishingly low is more like it. In a relationship that isn't just about instant casual sex and a quick goodbye, where the partners have absolutely no emotional connnection or concern for each other, acceptance of the other person generally comes pretty freely with the territory. And in a more quick and casual encounter, much the same applies.

My theory is that when people want to bang each other, and it gets to the stage of nakedness, it's generally going forward or it wouldn't have gotten that far. And if it's good between the two partners, it will happen again, and circumcision won't even be an issue. If it ever was in the first place. Which it probably wasn't.

cpitt398

10-23-2005, 11:18 PM

Just remember if you snip, you are basically ruining hs chance at being a porn star.

10-23-2005, 11:26 PM

lol im sure someone else has said this but unless you want your kid to get made fun of all the time, just get the circumcision

Dex

10-24-2005, 12:36 AM

Very good post.

Some comments:

[ QUOTE ]
1. The circumcision procedure is not particularly gruesome or painful.

[/ QUOTE ]
I find the idea that circumcisions are "not particularly painful" EXTREMELY hard to believe. Was this observation made during procedures with or without anesthetic? Even with anesthetic, I can't believe that it wouldn't hurt like hell afterwards.

[ QUOTE ]
4. It is easier to clean a circumcised penis. It is also not very difficult to clean an uncircumcised one, but this is a concern for some mothers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would these mothers honestly prefer caring for a raw, bloody, freshly circumcised penis?

[ QUOTE ]
5. The argument "he can always get a circumcision later if he wants to," is the single worst argument against circumcision that exists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whether this is true or not, the fact remains that it is HIS penis and it should be HIS choice.

[ QUOTE ]
7. Most American women, when polled, will say that they prefer circumcised males.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most American women, when polled, will also say that they've never had any experience with uncircumcised males.

[ QUOTE ]
8. The arguments that "the penis was not meant to be circumcised" or that the intervention is "unnatural" are very flimsy in a modern society. Armpit and genital hair were not meant to be removed, and artificial scents were not "meant" to be applied to the female body, but there does seem to be a social convention for sexuality that involves altering our natural appearance... right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hair grows back; artificial scents can be washed off; but the circumcised foreskin is gone forever. Also, if people want to remove their hair or apply an artificial scent, it is their choice to do so. The infant who is being circumcised has no choice.

[ QUOTE ]
9. An uncircumcised male is unlikely to ever endure any significant emotional trauma or relationship difficulty solely due to his uncircumcised state.

[/ QUOTE ]
In addition, there are plenty of circumcised males who have endured significant emotional trauma solely due to their circumcised state.

[ QUOTE ]
10. Some infants will develop a condition called phimosis, where the foreskin contracts and can no longer be retracted over the head of the penis. This sucks and requires circumcision later in childhood or infancy. This condition is common enough, and a big enough deal, that it would be the compelling reason for me to choose circumcision for my son if all other factors were completely equal.

[/ QUOTE ]
People shouldn't be retracting infant foreskin over the head of the penis anyway. My understanding is that you should leave it alone until it naturally "detaches" from the glans. Also, from what I've read, phimosis can often be successfully treated without having to resort to circumcision.

Exitonly

10-24-2005, 12:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, there are plenty of circumcised males who have endured significant emotional trauma solely due to their circumcised state.

[/ QUOTE ]

What??

rohjoh

10-24-2005, 12:45 AM

Nice post Craig, and I will add do not watch if you are the parent. I watched the first of my 3 boys, and it sucks.

Blarg

10-24-2005, 12:46 AM

You got the easy end of the deal.

10-24-2005, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I find the idea that circumcisions are "not particularly painful" EXTREMELY hard to believe. Was this observation made during procedures with or without anesthetic? Even with anesthetic, I can't believe that it wouldn't hurt like hell afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Dex

I say leave the poor little baby's thingy alone. Mother nature gave him a foreskin for a reason right? Poor baby.

10-24-2005, 12:58 AM

This thread has me wanting to get circumcised all over again just for kicks.

As a matter of fact, I may even pitch the idea to the producers of Nip/Tuck.

MrX

10-24-2005, 01:03 AM

Anyone ever heard of this story?

On the 27th of April, Janet left her twins at the local hospital in Winnipeg. Circumcision was a straightforward procedure and she expected to pick up her boys the next day. But early the following morning she got a call from the hospital.

JANET REIMER: When we first heard that there had been an accident we thought, "Well, what kind of accident could there be?" We went to the hospital and then the doctor said, "The penis has been burnt off from circumcision." And I could not comprehend what he was talking about, because, you see, I thought they were going to use a knife.

NARRATOR: Inexplicably, the physician treating her son Bruce had chosen an extremely unconventional method of circumcision. Bruce's penis had been completely destroyed.

This could be a downside

X

10-24-2005, 01:08 AM

I didn't read the whole post, but I think we're missing out on an extremely important point. Many of my female friends have never seen an uncircumsized penis, so when they found out that I have one, they all want to see it. Word gets around, and then lots of chicks want to see it. End result? You get to whip it out for hot chicks. And I've never had a problem in the locker room, for what it's worth.

imported_anacardo

10-24-2005, 01:11 AM

Me neither. Never once has my uncut rod been a source of locker-room commentary, nor anyone else's of whom I am aware. Neither have I received on-demand requests for a peek. I need to roll with classier dames.

Irieguy

10-24-2005, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

10. European kids are not having significant amounts of phimosis problems and requiring circumcision, nor are they in the rest of the world, which in the majority is uncircumcised. Potential phimosis is not a realistic concern.

[/ QUOTE ]

2-8% of uncircumcised males will acquire phimosis. It doesn't much matter whether you are born in Europe, America, or elsewhere.

Many of these cases can be treated without circumcision, but a significant number of childhood circumcisions are performed each year for phimosis, worldwide.

I travel to Haiti each year to perform medical missionary work, and circumcision for phimosis is the second most common procedure we perform; with elective tubal sterilization being the most common. Hernia repairs are less common than indicated circumcision... to provide another frame of reference.

It is possible that the reason why you think that phimosis is not a realistic concern is because you may not be a urologist, pediatrician, or obstetrician and you may not have visited a country with scant medical care and seen its practical manifestation.

Irieguy

Blarg

10-24-2005, 01:53 AM

This is not a country with scant medical care.

I was born in Europe, and of course so was much of my family and many friends. Not a one of them has had a problem of any kind, nor have I, nor has anyone they've ever heard of. And believe it or not, yes, the discussion has come up, and more than once. Because we marvel at the American paranoia about being uncircumcised, which is properly regarded in the rest of the world as a sort of intractably perverse joke.

I'm not sure what kind of a statistic 2% to 8% is. It leaves a wider margin for error than for clarity.

I am echoing one of your original points, which seems to have somehow gotten short shrift -- there is no compelling medical reason for circumcision.

Voltron87

10-24-2005, 01:57 AM

well, OOT has spent 100 posts in a night discussing their penises, and what to do with other little boys penises. someone make a better joke of it than i did.

daryn

10-24-2005, 02:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bruce's penis had been completely destroyed.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, at least they got the name right.

oh, and one time, a doctor was trying to perform life saving surgery on a guy, but it turns out the guy died.

Irieguy

10-24-2005, 02:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I was born in Europe, and of course so was much of my family and many friends. Not a one of them has had a problem of any kind, nor have I, nor has anyone they've ever heard of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would hope, for the sake of your family and friends, that this method of estimating pathologic incidence would deem many medical conditions "not a realistic concern."

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what kind of a statistic 2% to 8% is. It leaves a wider margin for error than for clarity.

[/ QUOTE ]

When incidence ranges are listed in the medical literature, they are usually taken from individual published studies. So if you search the Cochran database on phimosis, you can find studies listing an incidence of 2%, and studies listing an incidence of 8%. The true incidence can't have a range, of course, but our ability to estimate the true incidence is limited by the design and statistical power of the individual attmepts to measure it. It is likely that the "true" incidence is somewhere in between. The fact that a range in reported incidence exists is not unique to this pathology. In fact, it would be found in the literature regarding any pathology about which there is more than one published study.

In any event, it is certainly common enough to warrant mention since I have seen it and treated it. Nobody that I treated was a family member or friend, nor were they somebody that my family or friends had ever heard of.

Irieguy

Blarg

10-24-2005, 02:47 AM

It certainly does. I don't think anybody travels to Haiti to make decisions like this. Inventing problems and then solving them with a knife isn't a good enough idea to be helped by all the Haitians and statistics in the world.

The Yugoslavian

10-24-2005, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a country with scant medical care.

I was born in Europe, and of course so was much of my family and many friends. Not a one of them has had a problem of any kind, nor have I, nor has anyone they've ever heard of. And believe it or not, yes, the discussion has come up, and more than once. Because we marvel at the American paranoia about being uncircumcised, which is properly regarded in the rest of the world as a sort of intractably perverse joke.

I'm not sure what kind of a statistic 2% to 8% is. It leaves a wider margin for error than for clarity.

I am echoing one of your original points, which seems to have somehow gotten short shrift -- there is no compelling medical reason for circumcision.

[/ QUOTE ]

While obviously this isn't your only beef with Irie's initial comments on circumcision, it would seem you're out of your element in a discussion involving statistics....

As for the rest of your beef, in a very general sense, it seems you are very opposed to circumcision (which is fine I guess) and are misplacing it on what Irie has said. I don't think Irie thinks going one way or the other on the issue is necessary and is objectively stating some of the most important aspects to take into account for the decision.

It's weird seeing you so quickly disagree with so much of what an actual expert says about a subject when your posts, by and large, are so well thought out and take on an objective tone.

If it matters at all I can vouch for Irie's profession. It's not like he's making any of this stuff up.

Yugoslav

Blarg

10-24-2005, 03:26 AM

I think you misunderstand the direction of the discussion entirely. I've never doubted Irie's profession nor do I think it relevant. Nor is anyone's profession a guarantee that anyone else should agree with their every opinion.

The discussion is about choices and how sensible those choices are. About that, Irie has seemingly contradicted himself, asserting first that there is no medical necessity for circumcision, yet then stating that a 2% to 8% chance of phimosis is reason enough. Which is it?

The fact that Irie seems to change horses midstream, and without even noticing it, suggests that other things are at work here. Indeed, he lists them, even repetively, and they are about a presumed social value of circumcision, or its value in preventing sexual rejection, which seems highly speculative and is indeed refuted by the responses from uncircumcised posters who have never experienced these problems. In these social matters, Irie is out of his depth as much as I am in medical matters.

He was right the first time, before he tried extending his argument -- there is no medical necessity for circumcision. After that he fell out of his realm of expertise. And stated some speculative ideas that some others don't agree with, and in personal life haven't seen born out, including me.

Rick Nebiolo

10-24-2005, 04:43 AM

Several years ago I used to occasionally listen to a radio talk show on medical issues hosted by Dr. Dean Adell. Circumcision came up more than once. In a nutshell he said it wasn't needed for health, cleanliness or any other medical reasons and that men that didn't have it had better and more enjoyable sex lives (although thinking about a son's sex life might seem sort of weird /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Amazingly it took me a while to find a link but here's one (http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/8812.html). From that article there are other links that I'm too tired to read.

~ Rick

10-24-2005, 04:55 AM

No. Trauma issues.

diebitter

10-24-2005, 05:05 AM

This thread has just reminded me of a really fat guy I used to go to school with (he looked like Oliver Hardy with a shave). He used to bang on about being circumsized a lot, and used to act like he was gifted cos he'd read girls prefer it, cos it's 'cleaner'.

hehehe

wacki

10-24-2005, 05:26 AM

On the other hand men who are uncircumsized are much much more likely to contract HIV. Would provide link but I have to study.....

Still, I'm starting to wish I didn't get the "snip".

DAMN YOU RICK NEBIOLO!

EDIT: I'd like to see that paper as I know there are plenty of bad ones out there. I'm not familiar with that journal. I'll have to ask my sister since she's a MD.

wacki

10-24-2005, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with Dex

I say leave the poor little baby's thingy alone. Mother nature gave him a foreskin for a reason right? Poor baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to ask, have you had experience with both?

Ulysses

10-24-2005, 05:40 AM

I don't really have an opinion either way on the OP's question. I just wanted to chime in to say that I'm really surprised at how many of you guys have seen your dad's dicks.

Boris

10-24-2005, 05:42 AM

You've never seen your dad's pecker?

Dopey

10-24-2005, 05:45 AM

Don't stray into OOT often but I'll throw my $0.02 in.

I spent the first 22 years of my life uncircumcized.
At 23 I developed phimosis (as previously quoted only occurs in 2% of uncut males), after some other treatment circumcision was the best solution. I have now been circumcized for 2 years.

Having experienced both sides of it, I recommend circumcision (and not because of phimosis which is fairly rare). Mainly, with both sides being equal (which I think they are) I would lean toward the side that is more standard. Just look at the poll and you will see that the majority is circumcized (especially in America). Being different is hard for some children to understand, and while rare it can be an area of ridicule.

Cleanliness - It is not really any harder to clean, it requires pulling back a piece of skin which isn't to complex. A simple conversation about how to wash yourself/genral hygiene (which parents should have with their children anyway) would solve any problems.

Sex - I have never been denied sex after someone found out I wasn't circumsized. But to some girls/women it does come as a shock.
I have heard numerous discussions that women prefer oral on circumcized men and have found this to be true. But I was still getting head before I was circumcized.
As for feeling, the sensation is slightly different but it's pretty much equal. In reality, I enjoy it more now that I'm circumcized than I did before but I have heard opposite arguments as well.

So.........

It's really not going to make a big difference to your (possible) son's life either way. I would have any future sons circumcized as it is society's norm and I see no harm in it. But if you don't feel comfortable "hacking at his little member" then don't.

Dopey
/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Dariel86

10-24-2005, 05:49 AM

Hell no

Ulysses

10-24-2005, 05:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You've never seen your dad's pecker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

DiamondDave

10-24-2005, 06:06 AM

I am circumcised. I often wonder what it would be like if I had not been. I will not have it done to my children. And I marvel at those who think circumcision is perfectly normal but find, say, lip stretching to be a strange custom.

Dopey

10-24-2005, 06:11 AM

The "He can do it later in life if he chooses" argument bothers me for some reason.

Why would anyone choose to do it later in life? Outside of getting it done for medical reasons.I have never heard of someone getting it done but I'm sure it happens. If so why?

The only reason I can think of is they see it as abnormal and want to be normal. Or the woman/women they are with see it as abnormal and kinda scary (as some of the women of OOT have stated)

While it is probably uncommon to get it done later in life, the fact that someone would actually get it done makes me believe that for every person who gets it done later in life, there are probably a fair number who wished they had it done but are not willing to actually let someone "hack at their member" later in life.

Dopey /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

10-24-2005, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you circumcised?
You may choose only one
Yes.
No.
I am female.

[/ QUOTE ]

Females get circumcised too you know. What if it's a daughter. Are you going to cut her too ?

wacki

10-24-2005, 06:33 AM

I did a google and ran into this pic.
Linky (http://www.fotografx.biz/ALTER/galleries/nitty/003-Forced%20Circumcision.jpg)

Interesting....

DOn't have time to research this crap. Maybe tomorrow....

Shajen

10-24-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No. Trauma issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?

Are you serious?

10-24-2005, 11:26 AM

Wash your pecker like you wash your balls. Everytime you shower w/ soap and water and you will have no issues w/ cleanliness.
If you are fully erect, it will look like a circumcised penis.
Don't cut. Its a tradition based on superstition. There is no need to do it. Foreskin is a natural part of the body, would you consider cutting off your earlobe, because some imaginary man told some dude in the desert to do so years ago? If you answer yes, then I guess you have your reason for circumcising as well.

StevieG

10-24-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand men who are uncircumsized are much much more likely to contract HIV. Would provide link but I have to study.....

[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision.html)

Dex

10-24-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand men who are uncircumsized are much much more likely to contract HIV. Would provide link but I have to study.....

[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision.html)

[/ QUOTE ]
Circumcision can't prevent HIV (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Aids_Focus/0,,2-7-659_1809127,00.html)
Circumcision and HIV (http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html)
Circumcised men are at greater risk for HIV infection (http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/vanhowe4/)

However, this whole "circumcision vs. HIV" debate is moot anyway (or should be). Use a condom.

Rick Nebiolo

10-24-2005, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand men who are uncircumsized are much much more likely to contract HIV. Would provide link but I have to study.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I sometimes wonder about this sort of study (although I haven't read the link). IOW, is the population of uncircumsized people more likely to contact HIV for reasons totally unrelated to circumsicion? I do believe this is true with second hand smoke i.e., if married to a smoker you are far more likely to have a lower income and being poor is a huge indicator of reduced life span.

[ QUOTE ]
Still, I'm starting to wish I didn't get the "snip".

[/ QUOTE ]

When Dr. Adell said I could have been even better in bed I started thinking this too /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
DAMN YOU RICK NEBIOLO!

[/ QUOTE ]

What did I do? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I'd like to see that paper as I know there are plenty of bad ones out there. I'm not familiar with that journal. I'll have to ask my sister since she's a MD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I had a bad one but I'd rather not elaborate. That said, I've heard that specialists (e.g., those who typically perform them on Jewish people) are really expert.

~ Rick

The Yugoslavian

10-24-2005, 01:19 PM

Of course people shouldn't agree with his every opinion. That doesn't mean that his isn't valuable (and possibly regarded as extremely valuable by some).

I don't think he switched anything mid-stream. I think his point about the phimosis is that while it's not a huge deal by any means, it could be a tie-breaking issue (and would be for him personally) in the choice. His main point seems to be (to me) that there isn't any need to go either way medically.

As for the social aspect of it, it seems very strange to me that you are arguing the point so adamantly. It seems fairly obvious to me that while it's likely not a big deal by any means, American society certainly is more used to (if not favors) men who have had circumcision (which isn't necessarily a good thing). And btw, saying Irie is as 'out of his depth' in social matters as you are in medical matters makes no sense to me. Are you a Sociologist who is familiar with studies on this issue?

I dunno, I certainly don't think there is a correct answer to this question, but knowledge and opinions from someone who has discussed this issue with hundreds of individuals/couples, read literature pertaining to the topic and has performed hundreds of circumcisions would be welcome I'd assume.

Yugoslav

Mr_J

10-24-2005, 01:45 PM

Leave it on. Better for sex, the penis will be more sensitive.

WDC

10-24-2005, 01:50 PM

circumsize just bc you are i think its a bad thing for little guy to be different than dad.

imported_The Vibesman

10-24-2005, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think its a bad thing for little guy to be different than dad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read the whole thread, but this seems like the reason I hear a lot in this argument, and I have always thought it was a very casual reason to mutilate a child's genitals.

Sightless

10-24-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone choose to do it later in life? Outside of getting it done for medical reasons.I have never heard of someone getting it done but I'm sure it happens. If so why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddd, I had a friend who was uncircumsized, but decided to get it at age 19... ... It's his choice... he had no medical reasonign to do it... People do it...

MikeNaked

10-24-2005, 02:25 PM

Irie - Thanks for your expert opinion.

Are you seeing an increase in the percentage of parents who are choosing to not circumcise their boys? Or can we assume that when our child is grown, there will be the same ratio of circumcised/uncircumsised males?

Reef

10-24-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Find a reference that shows pictures, if possible, so you can see what would actually be done to your son. Anesthetic is not always used.

If you do not circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he really does not like it, he can always have it done later if he decides that it's worth it. But it will be HIS decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's remember that the infant will not remember the pain. Have the procedure later in life and that is PAIN (and no sex) for at least a week.

WSUchica

10-24-2005, 02:29 PM

Looks like im a little late in posting!

If you want another lady's perspective here's mine:

Never been with an uncircumcised guy so I don't really have both perspectives here but given the choice...I'd choose circumcised by a LANDSLIDE.

Good Luck!

Amid Cent

10-24-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I were you I'd have one of those Jewish ceremonies, but just cause for some reason I see humor in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We had one of these ceremonies (they're called a Bris) for my son several years ago. Trust me when I say there is nothing humorous about them.

If you are going to circumcise your son, see if you can find a pediatric urologist to do it.

arod15

10-24-2005, 02:43 PM

Dont do it let him decide...

daryn

10-24-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Find a reference that shows pictures, if possible, so you can see what would actually be done to your son. Anesthetic is not always used.

If you do not circumcise your son, and he decides, later in life, that he really does not like it, he can always have it done later if he decides that it's worth it. But it will be HIS decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's remember that the infant will not remember the pain. Have the procedure later in life and that is PAIN (and no sex) for at least a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

no sex for a week? wow, what will the guys of OOT ever do??

Irieguy

10-24-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Irie - Thanks for your expert opinion.

Are you seeing an increase in the percentage of parents who are choosing to not circumcise their boys? Or can we assume that when our child is grown, there will be the same ratio of circumcised/uncircumsised males?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is an old debate and the anti-circumcision movement is not as hot now as it was in the 70s.

Again, when I counsel patients I give them non-directed counseling and try to make sure that they understand that it is OK to not circumcise their son.

But more than 90% of males born in the U.S. are circumcised and it is not likely that this number will change much over the next generation.

Irieguy

B Dids

10-24-2005, 02:52 PM

I am uncut- and I voted to cut the kid. This is exactly a reflection of my own hang-ups about my penis being "different" and I'm not sure it's logical, but it just feels like an area where you spare some potential grief by conforming to the norm.

wacki

10-24-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Circumcision can't prevent HIV (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Aids_Focus/0,,2-7-659_1809127,00.html)
Circumcision and HIV (http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html)
Circumcised men are at greater risk for HIV infection (http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/vanhowe4/)

....

[/ QUOTE ]

Dex,

I have extreme doubts about the integrity of information coming from the "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" and a website called "circumstitions".

Don't have time to research this right now.

work to do,

wacki

daryn

10-24-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have extreme doubts about the integrity of information coming from the "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" and a website called "circumstitions".

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, owned.

imported_anacardo

10-24-2005, 04:00 PM

Are you serious? What problems could you have possibly had? Did some chick refuse to go down on you? I state again for the record - no trouble, ever. Sort of a "conversation piece."

B Dids

10-24-2005, 04:12 PM

It's nothing about what I've experienced, just my own hang-ups. I just think that given the choice, it's not something I would put my kid through if I had the choice, seeing as how I see minimal negatives to getting it done and potential negatives to not.

Dex

10-24-2005, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have extreme doubts about the integrity of information coming from the "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" and a website called "circumstitions".

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, owned.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not owned at all. He didn't even bother to read the information before he downplayed it based solely on the name of the site on which some of it was hosted.

I don't see the phrase "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" anywhere on any of the three pages to which I linked anyway, but even if it were there, so what? If the information they present is backed up with credible sources, who cares what they call themselves?

Edit: Having said all that, there are certainly plenty of one-sided, unbalanced sites that are short on reliable information but do make plenty of unfounded arguments based mostly on emotion. So, I understand his doubt. I am just saying to at least look at the information before downplaying it.

B Dids

10-24-2005, 04:17 PM

Are you new to the internet or something?

Dex

10-24-2005, 04:18 PM

Given that you say this:

[ QUOTE ]
Never been with an uncircumcised guy so I don't really have both perspectives

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say this:

[ QUOTE ]
given the choice...I'd choose circumcised by a LANDSLIDE.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Dex

10-24-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you new to the internet or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

B Dids

10-24-2005, 04:30 PM

The homepage for the second link you listed starts with this.

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the Intactivism Pages

The struggle for genital integrity
and against the involuntary genital modification
of children of any sex:

Circumcision
Female Genital Mutilation
Involuntary Sex Reassignment

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I think it's a pretty good idea to start distrusting any website that smacks of having an agenda.

Exitonly

10-24-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's nothing about what I've experienced, just my own hang-ups. I just think that given the choice, it's not something I would put my kid through if I had the choice, seeing as how I see minimal negatives to getting it done and potential negatives to not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what i said, theres no benefits either way, but theres the potential for some kind of negatives (however slim they are) for not getting it done.

Dex

10-24-2005, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The homepage for the second link you listed starts with this.

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the Intactivism Pages

The struggle for genital integrity
and against the involuntary genital modification
of children of any sex:

Circumcision
Female Genital Mutilation
Involuntary Sex Reassignment

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I think it's a pretty good idea to start distrusting any website that smacks of having an agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I'll agree with that statement.

However, generally speaking, the mere fact that a site or source has an agenda does not mean that all information pointed to by that site or source is necessarily incorrect.

10-24-2005, 06:30 PM

I'm cut... voted not to cut. I guess I'm "glad" that my penis is like most Americans, but I also think that it would be better for the norm to be uncut. It's a brutal, archaic practice that makes no sense in this day and age.

With all due respect to the doctor, you said there was no medical reason to circumcize... that's all you should say in your role as a doctor (to your patients). I hope you don't provide that same list to your patients and feel that you are not leading them to make the decision to circumsize. You are just perpetuating this unnecessary medical procedure, and I would hope that you would just say: "It's not medically necessary. The choice is up to you." Not "If it were up to me, I'd have him circumcised." Knowing it's not medically necessary, I'm not sure how you can feel this is consistent with your Hippocratic Oath.

I saw the Penn & Teller episode where they covered circumcision. They were especially harsh critics toward the women that think that uncircumcised penises are gross. If you are a woman that thinks that, I would hope that you would think long and hard about what that simple opinion is doing.

/rant

Exitonly

10-24-2005, 06:34 PM

How would it be against his oath to give his opinion? Theres a lot of factors in it, and if they ask what he thinks, theres no reason he should hold back.

10-24-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How would it be against his oath to give his opinion? Theres a lot of factors in it, and if they ask what he thinks, theres no reason he should hold back.

[/ QUOTE ]

To unnecessarily cause harm is against the Hippocratic oath. Yes, I think that cutting off a part of someone's body is "harm". Especially the penis.

cdxx

10-24-2005, 06:42 PM

if i recall correctly (i will look it up if challenged) Rabbi Ram Bam (a renowned doctor of his age) cited the following reason for circumcision (this was in the dark ages).

uncircumcized men are so far superior sexually, that a woman would be under his spell and would not have the power to leave him. hence, it is a rational choice for a man to be circumsized, as it will leave his woman lucid and force him to treat her better.

uncircumsized by a landslide.

daryn

10-24-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given that you say this:

[ QUOTE ]
Never been with an uncircumcised guy so I don't really have both perspectives

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say this:

[ QUOTE ]
given the choice...I'd choose circumcised by a LANDSLIDE.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[/ QUOTE ]

all i know is, i have seen pics of wsuchica, if i was uncut and she asked me to get it done, i'd go straight to the hospital

gorie

10-24-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I saw the Penn & Teller episode where they covered circumcision. They were especially harsh critics toward the women that think that uncircumcised penises are gross. If you are a woman that thinks that, I would hope that you would think long and hard about what that simple opinion is doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. but how do you feel about boob jobs ?
(not saying it is the same thing, but the whole "look what you're opinion is contributing to" thing made me think of it)
also i am pretty sure if it was the other way around, and an after birth snip made something about a womans body more appealing to a man, they would be all for it.

Rick Nebiolo

10-24-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like im a little late in posting!

If you want another lady's perspective here's mine:

Never been with an uncircumcised guy so I don't really have both perspectives here but given the choice...I'd choose circumcised by a LANDSLIDE.

Good Luck!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a circumcised guy but I'm not available /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elsewhere in this thread I mentioned that Dr. Dean Adell (he hosts a radio talk show) was against circumcision. If my fading memory serves one of his arguments against circumcision was that an uncircumcised guy tends to have a much greater degree of sensitivity, and this tended to result in guys WHO HAVE LEARNED TO TAKE THEIR TIME when making love.

Apparently not getting circumcised was common in much of Europe, and women who had European lovers seemed to be his source. Of course the lovers could have been Italian.

~ Rick

BigBaitsim (milo)

10-24-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am an obstetrician and have performed over 200 circumcisions. So, I have had this conversation with numerous families and am aware of the medical literature. I'll give you the basics in case it is helpful (both pros and cons):

1. The circumcision procedure is not particularly gruesome or painful. It takes me 90 seconds and some infants hardly cry. Most infants cry harder, and longer, when they have their heel sticks done for blood tests. It's not likely that it bothers them more than being born.

2. There is no compelling medical reason to have your infant circumcised.

3. Penile cancer (lifetime) and urinary tract infections in the first 2 years of life are less common in circumcised males. But both are so uncommon that it is not a very important consideration from a statistical standpoint.

4. It is easier to clean a circumcised penis. It is also not very difficult to clean an uncircumcised one, but this is a concern for some mothers.

5. The argument "he can always get a circumcision later if he wants to," is the single worst argument against circumcision that exists.

6. Circumcision is more common in America than non-circumcision and most humans prefer to be common when it comes to matters concerning their sexual organs.

7. Most American women, when polled, will say that they prefer circumcised males.

8. The arguments that "the penis was not meant to be circumcised" or that the intervention is "unnatural" are very flimsy in a modern society. Armpit and genital hair were not meant to be removed, and artificial scents were not "meant" to be applied to the female body, but there does seem to be a social convention for sexuality that involves altering our natural appearance... right or wrong.

9. An uncircumcised male is unlikely to ever endure any significant emotional trauma or relationship difficulty solely due to his uncircumcised state.

10. Some infants will develop a condition called phimosis, where the foreskin contracts and can no longer be retracted over the head of the penis. This sucks and requires circumcision later in childhood or infancy. This condition is common enough, and a big enough deal, that it would be the compelling reason for me to choose circumcision for my son if all other factors were completely equal.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well stated, nonetheless, what the hell are you doing in OOT? You are confusing the masses with cogently-stated facts.

lastchance

10-24-2005, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw do you mean youre indifferent on the matter rather than ambivalent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well kinda both. Indifferent because it's not a big deal either way and ambivalent because I keep going back and forth. My ego wants my boy to have the same pretty pecker as his dad, but logic is pointing towards leaving him whole.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just let the kid decide when he's old enough to decide.

10-24-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i agree. but how do you feel about boob jobs ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not nearly as many American women have boob jobs as American men have circumcisions... but... I think women should not feel pressured to alter their bodies. Honestly, I think natural is more beautiful.

[ QUOTE ]
also i am pretty sure if it was the other way around, and an after birth snip made something about a womans body more appealing to a man, they would be all for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not be. If a woman chooses to do something, then that's one thing. But, to force a baby to surgically alter their body because we feel that it's more attractive... is... barbaric.

Rick Nebiolo

10-24-2005, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
7. Most American women, when polled, will say that they prefer circumcised males.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wrote the somewhat whimsical "Are circumcised men better lovers" subpost below. In regards to point 7. above I wonder if the polled woman prefer circumcised males not based on actual experience; rather a perception that uncircumcised men's organs are weird, gross or unclean.

~ Rick

rwesty

10-24-2005, 08:25 PM

The Yugoslavian

10-24-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Very well stated, nonetheless, what the hell are you doing in OOT? You are confusing the masses with cogently-stated facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

He sure is....way too many readers are completely misinterpreting his post.

Yugoslav

wacki

10-24-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

He didn't even bother to read the information before he downplayed it based solely on the name of the site on which some of it was hosted.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the phrase "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" anywhere on any of the three pages to which I linked anyway, but even if it were there, so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's odd these two quotes are in the same post.

If you look at the first link you provided:
Backup Linky (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Aids_Focus/0,,2-7-659_1809127,00.html)

and read the very FIRST sentence.

Cape Town - Organisations including the International Coalition of Genital Integrity on Friday cautioned against reports indicating that mass circumcisions could help prevent the spread of HIV.

In that same article there is another organization sourced:

National Organisation of Restoring Men

I could go on and on....

[ QUOTE ]
If the information they present is backed up with credible sources, who cares what they call themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a reasonable argument in theory or if you are in an ivory tower. However, in practice.... no. I will admit there are some exceptions but they are very rare.

To be honest even quoting mainstream news sources will often get you into trouble. The bbc does a decent job when it comes to science (due to it's natural tendency to side with academic research) but it will side with the hardcore liberal given the chance and they can be pretty bad when they do. The very popular www.junkscience.com (http://www.junkscience.com) and www.techcentralstation.com (http://www.techcentralstation.com)
go the other direction and are absolutely horrible when talking about scientific research IMO. Now if I consider those sources less than reliable, just imagine what I think of the links you provided. I will admit the last link you showed was pretty good, however there are plenty of holes I really don't want to go into. In short, I'm not completely sold on her methodology. Also, I am not familiar with that journal you linked to. I stick to mainly science, cell, nature and their sub journals. There are plenty of others that are good though. If an article links to one of those journals in it's bibliography, you are normally golden.

If you want a real source of information on this topic, here is a good link. It's simple, easy to read, and has a magical thing called bibliography which is linked to reputable peer reviewed journals.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/320/7249/1592

It will tell you HOW circumcisions stop HIV.

Ok, I've now wasted too much time on OOT simply making this post.

Dex

10-25-2005, 04:32 AM

Excellent post, wacki.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He didn't even bother to read the information before he downplayed it based solely on the name of the site on which some of it was hosted.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the phrase "International Coalition of Genital Integrity" anywhere on any of the three pages to which I linked anyway, but even if it were there, so what?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's odd these two quotes are in the same post.

If you look at the first link you provided:
Backup Linky (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Aids_Focus/0,,2-7-659_1809127,00.html)

and read the very FIRST sentence.

Cape Town - Organisations including the International Coalition of Genital Integrity on Friday cautioned against reports indicating that mass circumcisions could help prevent the spread of HIV.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct. I honestly did not notice that there when I looked at those pages as I was responding to your post.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want a real source of information on this topic, here is a good link. It's simple, easy to read, and has a magical thing called bibliography which is linked to reputable peer reviewed journals.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/320/7249/1592

It will tell you HOW circumcisions stop HIV.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are lots of rebuttals that can be found here (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/320/7249/1592). Some even have a magical thing called a bibliography which is linked to reputable peer reviewed journals.

I'm not looking to be a nit with this study or its rebuttals. The point is that the conclusion of this study is, at best, debatable.

The REAL point is this. The study itself is pointless. There are these really neat things called condoms. People, regardless of their circumcision status, can choose to use them to dramatically reduce their risk of HIV infection.

People will point to this study to support their opinions that male infants should be circumcised, or that circumcision is "right", or whatever, because of the study's implication that circumcision will lower the risk of HIV infection.

Ultimately, however, even if there were studies that conclude that circumcision is 100% effective in preventing HIV infection, this should not be used as a reason to force circumcision upon anyone.

Let me propose an equally ridiculous idea: removing female infants' breasts, at birth, would have a 100% success rate at preventing breast cancer. Obviously, the very idea that something like this should be proposed as a preventative measure is completely absurd. The very idea that circumcision should be proposed as a preventative measure for HIV infection is no less absurd.

wacki

10-25-2005, 08:31 AM

Those responses were made by the people who read that website. I could log in and make a response like they did. You have to be extremely cautious reading that material.

would write more but time is short.

also, I agree it's not a practical prophylactic

VBM

10-25-2005, 11:56 AM

The literature says that something like 60% of baby boys in America aren't circumcised, so I don't think he'll be looked at funny either way.

My wife & I just had a son & we both wanted to, but I shared your hesitation to circumcise him, as I think that part of a man's body should always be treated nicely. I pictured him coming back screaming and angry and scared and in pain.

But, truthfully, it took 15 minutes & he was just really drowsy afterwards. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think really either way is fine. If he's not, plenty of kids won't be. If he is, its not nearly as traumatic an experience as you may think it will be.

10-25-2005, 12:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My wife & I just had a son & we both wanted to, but I shared your hesitation to circumcise him, as I think that part of a man's body should always be treated nicely. I pictured him coming back screaming and angry and scared and in pain.

But, truthfully, it took 15 minutes & he was just really drowsy afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, why did you decide to do it?

VBM

10-25-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My wife & I just had a son & we both wanted to, but I shared your hesitation to circumcise him, as I think that part of a man's body should always be treated nicely. I pictured him coming back screaming and angry and scared and in pain.

But, truthfully, it took 15 minutes & he was just really drowsy afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, why did you decide to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My wife's family is Christian so she had convictions about it. I'm also in the circumcised club myself and I figured if it was something he may do later anyhow, it'd be less traumatic in his newborn days than it would later.

Shajen

10-25-2005, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My wife & I just had a son & we both wanted to, but I shared your hesitation to circumcise him, as I think that part of a man's body should always be treated nicely. I pictured him coming back screaming and angry and scared and in pain.

But, truthfully, it took 15 minutes & he was just really drowsy afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, why did you decide to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

My wife's family is Christian so she had convictions about it. I'm also in the circumcised club myself and I figured if it was something he may do later anyhow, it'd be less traumatic in his newborn days than it would later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do any of you people who are against circumcision for pain reasons really think a baby will remember?

Sightless

10-25-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Do any of you people who are against circumcision for pain reasons really think a baby will remember?

[/ QUOTE ]

Will it remember it, No?

Might it cause some very deep seeded psychological traumma? could be

10-25-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My wife's family is Christian so she had convictions about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, I suppose. However, for other Christians out there that are considering cirumcision for religious reasons, I should point out the following Biblical passage:

[ QUOTE ]
Galatians 5:2-12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Galatians%205:2-12;&version=31;) (NIV)
2| Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3| Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4| You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5| But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6| For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7| You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8| That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9| "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10| I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11| Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12| As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

[/ QUOTE ]