View Full Version : when to let go of CRs gone bad
villain is 53/10/4.33 over 50 hands
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO folds.
Flop: (10 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.
River: (9.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero?.
Final Pot: 16.50 BB
me454555
10-23-2005, 04:49 PM
Checkraise that flop for value, you have more than enough outs to maket this a good play. On the river, the pot is so big and your hand is so strong that folding is out of the question. I think you're river checkraise is fine and I'd just call the 3 bet expecting to be beaten
TheMetetron
10-23-2005, 04:57 PM
Welcome to how to butcher a hand 101.
Raise PF.
As you played it c/r the flop.
As you played it after failing to do both of those, I cannot help you out. I don't play this badly, sorry.
Nietzsche
10-23-2005, 05:04 PM
I CR the flop for value. On the river I CR and fold against a TAG but against this opponent I call the 3-bet.
Terrabon98
10-23-2005, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to how to butcher a hand 101.
Raise PF.
As you played it c/r the flop.
As you played it after failing to do both of those, I cannot help you out. I don't play this badly, sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if you really believe other people think you're cool when you make fun of people trying to learn. It's amazing how morons never think about how bad they themselves used to be (and probably still are)
Anyway, you should certainly check-raise this flop. I assumed you were checking b/c you expected the button to bet and thus you could trap a couple players in for at least two bets on the flop. On the river, I like the checkraise as the button will value bet a pair of aces and have a lot of trouble folding for one more in such a large pot. I agree with one of the other posters that you need to call the last bet, even though are usually beat. Not much you can do about that.
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to how to butcher a hand 101.
Raise PF.
As you played it c/r the flop.
As you played it after failing to do both of those, I cannot help you out. I don't play this badly, sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
HEHEHE. It's hard to play well when you were running as bad as I was. I did not raise preflop because it was a passive table and I expected it to be 5-6 handed. A raise and it might have been 3-4 handed.
You still raise preflop (not considering that I had low fold equity due to how bad I was running)?
As for the CRing the flop, do you follow through on the turn if you do not improve or check if checked to?
(button was aggressive and I thought I could trap the earlier player if I hit).
Nietzsche
10-23-2005, 05:29 PM
On a passive table I really don't think this is a bad limp preflop. With little fold equity much of the reason for raising is gone.
On the turn I will normally check/call. A better hand will not always bet here and worse will sometimes fire again because of your weakness. Also I don't think a worse hand will that often. A free card is not a bad result. Your hand is also not supervulnerable the times you are ahead.
I wonder what others think about the turn had you CR'ed the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
On a passive table I really don't think this is a bad limp preflop. With little fold equity much of the reason for raising is gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
there is plenty of value alone to justify putting multiple bets in on the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what others think about the turn had you CR'ed the flop.
[/ QUOTE ]
we let the button bet the turn for us.
admiralfluff
10-23-2005, 05:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A free card is not a bad result
[/ QUOTE ]
You will only get a free card when you have the best hand. That is a bad result. Betting the turn means you are sometimes called by a worse hand. Checking means when you put a bet in, you are far more often behind.
me454555
10-23-2005, 05:45 PM
PF raise is key b/c you have an equity edge to which you'd push. If they fold, great, if they don't thats good too b/c you've got a pf equity advantage. Same goes for the flop c/r. I'd prolly check call the turn b/c he's not likely to fold.
ok thanks! fyi, i lost to Aces full. i see that i have to push equity edges harder!
SparkyDog
10-23-2005, 06:23 PM
You don't really have much of an equity advantage preflop. And to really capitalize on this hand you need position postflop, so raising here is far from a must, especially for a new player. Open raising in LP is fine, and raising a family pot when you have the button is fine too. But building a pot out of position with a trouble hand isn't good poker. For some, a fold in this spot may be best because of the postflop skills required to play this OOP. I think OP should definitely fold QJo in this spot.
TheMetetron
10-23-2005, 06:35 PM
It was a joke.
Like not meant to be taken seriously.
I'm glad it got somebody riled up though, that makes it more fun for me.
purnell
10-23-2005, 06:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to how to butcher a hand 101.
Raise PF.
As you played it c/r the flop.
As you played it after failing to do both of those, I cannot help you out. I don't play this badly, sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
HEHEHE. It's hard to play well when you were running as bad as I was. I did not raise preflop because it was a passive table and I expected it to be 5-6 handed. A raise and it might have been 3-4 handed.
You still raise preflop (not considering that I had low fold equity due to how bad I was running)?
As for the CRing the flop, do you follow through on the turn if you do not improve or check if checked to?
(button was aggressive and I thought I could trap the earlier player if I hit).
[/ QUOTE ]
You raise this hand preflop because:
1) You have alot of equity.
2) A big pot gets you paid off when you hit the flop.
Given your read on the button, limping is not necessarily a huge mistake, though. The big mistake is playing this monster weakly post-flop. As it played out, you need to check-raise this flop for value. Your flush draw has nine outs, plus two queens and probably three jacks. You also have a back-door nut straight draw that's worth maybe half an out. Let's discount the jacks by half and say you have 13 outs. That gives you more than 50% pot equity IF there is an ace out there, and even more if not. Clearly you want to pump this flop. It is a big mistake not to get as many bets in on the flop as you can. I think there's a good case for leading the turn whether you hit or not. Call a turn raise. When the queen hits on the end, I think you bet again and call a raise. You cannot fold on this river as you played it because the pot is too big and your hand is too strong, and if you played your hand strongly the pot would be even bigger. Folding that river would be a gigantic mistake.
Also, to Terrabon, Metetron is not a tactful person, but he is absolutely correct about the way this hand was played. And while he may or may not have been a bad player once upon a time, you definitely do not want to see him at your table tonight.
This thread reminds me of one of my first posts in the SS forum. Same deal, big flush draw played ass-backwards, but my preflop mistake was cold-calling instead of folding. Some of the responses were similarly harsh and short, but when I asked "why", I was given some of the best poker advice I ever got.
Nietzsche
10-23-2005, 07:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A free card is not a bad result
[/ QUOTE ]
You will only get a free card when you have the best hand. That is a bad result. Betting the turn means you are sometimes called by a worse hand. Checking means when you put a bet in, you are far more often behind.
[/ QUOTE ]
The downside is an ace will often be raising you making the draw more expensive.
purnell
10-23-2005, 07:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ok thanks! fyi, i lost to Aces full. i see that i have to push equity edges harder!
[/ QUOTE ]
meh. So you ran into another huge hand. Don't let that change the way you think about how to play this type of hand.
Nietzsche
10-23-2005, 07:12 PM
The equity edge isn't all that great with QJs and when you do hit calling stations make more significant mistakes when the pot is smaller. Coupled with the lack of fold equity at this table I think the difference in EV between limping and raising preflop must be very small.
Also this hand likes many opponents. Limping encourages weak players to come along.
felson
10-24-2005, 06:47 PM
You should raise preflop, especially against a guy who plays half his hands.
Then you should c/r the flop. You probably have 50% equity in the pot vs two players, and that's assuming you're not ahead.
On the river, don't even dream of folding to the 3rd bet.
felson
10-24-2005, 06:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I did not raise preflop because it was a passive table and I expected it to be 5-6 handed. A raise and it might have been 3-4 handed.
[/ QUOTE ]
With suited high cards, you don't mind playing a raised pot multiway. And there still is the possibility of buying the button for later streets if you can get the later players to fold behind you.
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