Party 11s: Bad for your game?

I started playing online at Party Poker a few months back before switching to Pacific Poker for a change of pace. I've been successful at both sites, but recently switched back to Party Poker during weekend nights because of the fish factor (I play Pacific during the daytime).

Last night as I was pushbotting on the bubble, it occurred to me that playing these tables was costing me a lot in learning experience. Post flop play is almost non-existent with the measly starting chip stacks, playing creative hands like suited connectors is -EV, as you don't have enough chips to see the hand to completion, and it's almost impossible to put opponents on a hand range because their starting requirements are so low. Basically, you're waiting for a hand where you have the best of it, and pushing your chips in while hoping for a fishy call. How does that improve anyone's game?

I play poker because I love the "challenge of self" it presents to me. As a solid but not great low-level player, I am obsessed with improving my game. With each new level of learning, I only realize how much more I don't know. I don't aspire to make a living off of this or even play in the WSOP. I only want to see how good I can become without putting myself in financial jeopardy. Having a few extra dollars at the end of the day is nice, but honestly I'd settle for break-even poker as long as my game was getting better.

Party Poker is great for making money, but I don't think that making money and becoming a better player are necessarily synonymous. I think that people at my experience level are doing themselves long term harm by playing in Party Poker's format. Sites with deeper starting chip stacks allow you enough wiggle room to experiment, play creatively, and work on your post flop play. Sure, you won't make as much in the short term, but I'm guessing that someone who consistently beats the 11's at Party can beat them anywhere.

Anyone have an opinion on their preferred structure for SNGs?

[Onaflag]

I switched from Party to Stars when the breakup happened and haven't switched back, yet. The starting stack is darn near double and you know what? No strategy change required.

Therefore, I disagree with your assessment.

Onaflag.........

[tom441lbk]

i try not to worry about postflop play, as much as i worry about what i'm going to do with the money i make, b/c its easy to pushbot...

Why complain about a good thing?

[ QUOTE ]

Why complain about a good thing?

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I guess it depends on how you define "a good thing." Pushboting may be easy, but how are you going to improve if this is how you spend most of your time playing poker?

Maybe my motivation is a little different. For me, it's not primarily about money, at least in the short term.

[Freudian]

If you want to flatten your learning curve I would get into cashgames. It probably would be a good idea to add a game like Omaha also.

Sure, there are SnG at other sites with less pushbotting, but a lot of the +EV you have in those tourneys will be exploiting people playing big blinds poorly anyway.

[niquewon]

Single table touraments require a different skillset than a ring game, if you want to improve your postflop play try playing cash games instead. I like to mix in some PLO ring games when I'm getting bored with pushbotting.

[zipppy]

Just make enough money to move up in levels.

I am also working on becoming a better all-around player, and the 11s are not bad for this. Poker is about adapting to different situations, and making decisions that will be most profitable for you. That said, low limit SNGs can only teach you so much about poker. I currently use a system that was inspired by Curtains.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/curtainspoker/

Using a system similar to his Oct 16 entry, I play 60%SNGS, (back at the 22s after moving down after a downswing), and split the remaining 40% between cash games in LHE, NLHE, PLO, O8/b, Stud, and Stud8/b. This helps avoid burning out after the repetitiveness of multi-tabling SNGs, and improves my all around poker game. I think using a system like this creates a happy medium between making maximum profit, and challenging yourself and keeping poker interesting. Also, as you improve at cash games, they can become much more lucrative than SNGs, though they involve much more variance. Good luck for your poker future, as long as you don't suck out on me.....

I like the idea of playing ring games to improve post-flop play. I'm not sure I'm good enough at this point, however, to avoid getting torn up by the sharks. It seems that no-limit ring games attract a much higher quality player than do SNGs. Am I wrong on this?

[kevbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I play poker because I love the "challenge of self" it presents to me. As a solid but not great low-level player, I am obsessed with improving my game. With each new level of learning, I only realize how much more I don't know. I don't aspire to make a living off of this or even play in the WSOP. I only want to see how good I can become without putting myself in financial jeopardy. Having a few extra dollars at the end of the day is nice, but honestly I'd settle for break-even poker as long as my game was getting better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to play 1 SNG at a time (on Stars w/ the 1500 in chips) b/c I wanted to learn and and have the highest win-rates possible. It wasn't about the money, but rather improving. Now I've just decided to say fuc#-it and make the money. All I want to do now is have the best hourly rate possible and make money hand over fist. Now I 8 table on Party and concentrate on my ROI% Fun? - nope, it's boring, but I mix in some other games from time to time to mix it up. Now, fun for me is spending the money.

- KEVBO -

[niquewon]

I wouldn't worry about being torn up in the low limit ring games, if you have any clue about what you're doing you'll be in better shape than many of the folks at your table.

I agree with Hobbes. Everybody wants to play as many tables as possible to maximize hourly rate, while, if they improved and moved up in limits, they could play less tables with a higher hourly rate.
I'm 1-3 tabling the $55's right now, until I am confident about my game and know that I'm a better player. I'm also thinking about playing NL cash games.

Everybody says you shouldn't play cash games, because NL cash games are different from NL SnG's. That's true, of course, but the skills needed to be a winning NL cash game player are very helpful in SnG's.
You need to make postflop decisions all the time, so you'll learn how to read players better, and simply learn to maximize EV postflop. If you then adjust in the SnG you'll be a better player.