Theoretical question on suited Aces

I was playing $25NL full-ring on Pokerstars when the following hand happened. I was sitting on the BB w/A4s, UTG, UTG+1 and CO all limp, then the button raises to $2. Myself, the SB and UTG had all doubled up earlier in the session, but the button was buying in short and only had about $15 to his name. After a brief delay, the SB calls and the choice is mine.

Now that I've set the scene, what are the general factors that should go into my decision? Should I simply say that my hand is dominated and fold or should I consider the SB (the only player covering me) just called, UTG will probably call if he sees two people calling in front of him, and try and play this as suited connectors, i.e. 2-pair or flush draw + pair? My thinking on the second point was people call w/PP, then check/fold when they miss their set, thus likely creating dead money in the pot if I hit the flush draw.

Should my thinking be swayed by, first, the potential for deepstack play versus the other callers; by, second, the potential dead money versus the original raiser; or by, third, the thought I will be playing a hand with three callers OOP against both a deep stack and the original raiser, so my hand is just dominated and fold it?

Im assuming the BB is .25 on pokerstars like it is on party?

I don't think calling is too awful of a play. But that said, I think you should fold here. I don't like calling raises with a hand like this, in position or out. And the preflop raiser being such a shortstack cuts down on your implied odds. Wait for a better spot.

[PokerFink]

Don't call 8xBB raises OOP with SC.

[rikz]

Fold. You're out of position in a raised pot with Axs. The best case is all spades come and you may not get any action. More likely, you'll get a flush draw or maybe a gutshot straight and flush draw or even a pair and a flush draw, but you'll be out of position on a big field making you're decisions on semi-bluffing or taking a free card etc. much harder. Most likely, you'll miss the flop and be out the $2 raise (minus the SB, of course).

Now, I might take a chance and call if I was in the CO after being limped to, I limp, button raises to $2, then there are 3 or 4 callers to me and I'm last to act. Now, I can see everybody's action to the raiser, and if we all check, I can see everybody's response to the raiser post-flop. That might be an OK gamble with A4s in a raised pot.

In general, at a full ring game, I fold Axs Kxs and suited connectors out of position in any raised pot.

[afreeman]

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...try and play this as suited connectors, i.e. 2-pair or flush draw + pair?

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In my opinion, Ax suited is quite a bit weaker PF than either a PP or SC and is really only playable for flush value in a large field of limpers. I know Ax seems like a good draw hand, but it just isn't, for a couple reasons.

Suited connectors can make a good hand two ways (straight or flush). When you do hit a straight with SCs, it can often be fairly deceptive.

Pocket pairs can make a good hand one way (set) and offer outs to a really good hand (full house or quads). They can be quite deceptive.

Ace-rag suited can make a good hand (nut flush) only one way. And, if it does connect, those three other suited cards on the board make it fairly obvious.

With fewer ways to make a good hand and less deceptiveness when you do make it, Ax suited is clearly a weaker hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Should my thinking be swayed by, first, the potential for deepstack play versus the other callers; by, second, the potential dead money versus the original raiser; or by, third, the thought I will be playing a hand with three callers OOP against both a deep stack and the original raiser, so my hand is just dominated and fold it?

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With all of these types of hands, you're going to be behind on the flop, so you're relying on implied odds to make them worthwhile. That means you need to: (1) connect with the flop, and (2) get paid off.

Thus, the answer to your question is really a function of how well you can expect to be paid off if your longshot does come in.

In this case, if I was confident that (1) the limpers would passively call the PF raise and probably another 1/2 pot bet on the flop, or that (2) the button would almost certainly call a turn or river push with a weak hand like TPTK, then I would probably call and see the flop, playing this strictly for flush value.

Even at $25NL, I wouldn't say that these conditions are present all that often, however.

[pokerjoker]

You are outthinking yourself. FOLD. Don't think so hard. Just FOLD.

PS...if you want to think then do an analysis based on percentages that you will hit and your implied odds. Then FOLD.

[Hattifnatt]

I agree, but think a call is fine if the raise was 4bb, what do you (or any other guy) think?

[afreeman]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but think a call is fine if the raise was 4bb, what do you (or any other guy) think?

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No real reads or stats were provided by the OP, so there isn't really enough information presented to make a definitive answer.

This is a very marginal situation that I think can be profitable only under very specific conditions (e.g. loose table, fishy or maniacal opponents that will pay you off).

You wouldn't be making much of a mistake just auto-folding this from anywhere but LP, or to any raise.

Thanks guys for the responses, they were quite instructive.

In this case, I ended up doing what was recommended here on the forum and folded. However, when the flop came A43, the three of my suit, I wondered if I had been a little weak-tight and had not adequately considered other factors on the table, results oriented thinking, certainly, but it was the top two-pair that kept me thinking about this hand even after my session was done. Axs and Kxs have been some of my hardest hands to play, especially against a raise, and I generally end up dropping both because I'm not confident in how I want to play either. I certainly have quite a bit to learn and the posts were very constructive, thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
Axs and Kxs have been some of my hardest hands to play, especially against a raise, and I generally end up dropping both because I'm not confident in how I want to play either. I certainly have quite a bit to learn and the posts were very constructive, thanks.

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Axs and Kxs are only 3% better than Ax and Kx. I definitely don't play Ax and Kx against raises (unless i'm a blind and its a min raise).

[whittiphil]

I'm losing a lot of money with Axs and Kxs (although I've stopped playing this one), I think your situation is one of the reasons.

I'm resolving to either limp or raise in LP, and folding to any raises.

[ericlambi]

For 8xBB, this is an easy fold. If it had been 3-4xBB, it is more difficult. I definitely call 3xBB . . . 4 depends on my mood.

The whole issue is implied odds, which are low with such a big raise pre-flop against a short stack. Lately, I've been trying to get away from playing suited cards . . . I feel that players are aware that everyone is playing suited cards and are making the draws too expensive to be profitable in many instances. Others on the forum that are braver than I [claim to] have a lot of success getting others to lay down their big hands by semi-bluffing with big raises on flush draws. Myself, I never count on getting anyone at $100NL to fold top pair or better.