Shoving it in on a semibluff - $100NL [Archive]

gulebjorn

10-23-2005, 09:52 AM

Prima TV Broadcast Table - 8 max

Button+1 and Button+3 are sitting out. Table is pretty passive, maybe they didn't notice it's 6-handed.

Hero ($99) is MP with 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG folds, Hero raises to $4, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop ($16): 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
2 checks, Hero bets $15, CO folds, SB raises to $30, BB folds, Hero calls

Turn ($76): 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB checks, Hero pushes for $65

Comments?

gulebjorn

10-23-2005, 10:37 AM

Here's another one. Table has become really agressive, hence the limp/rr. Button is a donk that i've seen open limp/call a raise from UTG+1 with A5o, and then calling a PSB on a K95 flop. Table is 7-handed.

I'm UTG with A /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, Button calls, blinds fold, Hero($119) raises to $8, UTG+1($139) calls, Button ($52) calls

Flop ($25.50): 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero bets $20, UTG+1 calls, Button calls

Turn ($85.50): 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero pushes all-in for $91.50

Thoughts?

EMcWilliams

10-23-2005, 01:34 PM

First hand- eh, I guess the aggression is a good on a passive table when the scare card comes that helped your hands, I probably push there.

Second Hand- Also seems about right, given your read on the villian. YOu got your money in with the probable best hand.

Simplistic

10-23-2005, 01:38 PM

1st hand - I hate it, you likely got called and lost
2nd hand - re-raise more preflop, rest is fine.

gulebjorn

10-23-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand - I hate it

[/ QUOTE ]
Why?

[ QUOTE ]
you likely got called

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, I wouldn't post the hand if he folded.

[ QUOTE ]
and lost

[/ QUOTE ]
What's calling me that I beat? That's the problem with this hand as far as I can see. I think I should have pushed the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
2nd hand - re-raise more preflop, rest is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think PF was the good part of this hand. I noticed I didn't specify the amount of the original raise - it was a minraise. So I re-raised to $8 in a $6.5 pot. Why isn't that enough? I think my turn push is the mistake here.

gulebjorn

10-23-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First hand- eh, I guess the aggression is a good on a passive table when the scare card comes that helped your hands, I probably push there.

[/ QUOTE ]
My questions on the first hand are probably:
1) is the PF raise borderline, -EV, or just stupid?
2) do you like my flop bet?
3) what do I do after the minraise?
4) what's your line on this turn?

[ QUOTE ]
Second Hand- Also seems about right, given your read on the villian. YOu got your money in with the probable best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I didn't (results will follow).

Preflop is good IMO, given the agressive table (if not plz comment). Flop bet is pretty standard (right?).

I think the push after two big flop calls is pretty bad. Posting this because I think the turn is where I went wrong in this hand.

-Skeme-

10-23-2005, 03:18 PM

Hand 1: Take the free card. Why would he fold here?
Hand 2: Just raise pre or raise more after the raise. Uh, I think you can't not push the turn.

gulebjorn

10-23-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: Take the free card. Why would he fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time, my thinking didn't go beyond: "hey, i picked up some extra outs, now I can push for sure". I guess I was hoping that the minraise was just testing me because he suspected a continuation bet on a ragged flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Just raise pre or raise more after the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
You too? I raised to $8 in a $6.50 pot. Isn't that enough?

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, I think you can't not push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really thought the turn push was the problem with this hand. What would those two be calling with on the flop that a) doesn't have me beat already, or b) didn't improve to beat me on the turn?

The second I pushed the turn I thought: I'm betting into a set. I just don't see two drawing hands or smaller overpairs on this board. I don't know. That's why I'm posting this.

-Skeme-

10-23-2005, 07:12 PM

Right, it's just a shitty situation altogether. Basically I am not capable of just check-folding there. I'd rather bet into the set which will inevitably appear there once in a while as opposed to giving free cards to the more likely 2nd best hands.

10-23-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You too? I raised to $8 in a $6.50 pot. Isn't that

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats not enough. You said it yourself, the table was getting agressive, so you can raise higher. I'd raise to at least 10.

First hand: I don't see why you didn't check. Your 8 pair was no good, or at least thats the way it seems. Given that, you're effectively playing off a draw, forget your 8 pair. Would you have pushed without the 8? Then why push WITH the 8? If you had top pair, then I'd make this play. I wouldn't make it with middle pair. Check behind, and then feel out the river.

troymclur

10-23-2005, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You too? I raised to $8 in a $6.50 pot. Isn't that

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats not enough. You said it yourself, the table was getting agressive, so you can raise higher. I'd raise to at least 10.

First hand: I don't see why you didn't check. Your 8 pair was no good, or at least thats the way it seems. Given that, you're effectively playing off a draw, forget your 8 pair. Would you have pushed without the 8? Then why push WITH the 8? If you had top pair, then I'd make this play. I wouldn't make it with middle pair. Check behind, and then feel out the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Push on the eight because its a scare card, and it gives his trips/two-pair outs on top of his OESD. I don't mind the aggression at all, especially after the check.

10-23-2005, 08:04 PM

The 8 is no scare card...Hero raised preflop, and bet the flop. Chances are, the 8 didn't help him too much.

Also, he gained 5 outs, but there's still not much of a reason to bet. If he was first to act, then I can advocate pushing. But he has the option to gain a free card, so I would take it.

10-23-2005, 08:30 PM

You can't always raise preflop with only premium hands. It makes you predictable. Plus its only 6-max.

Remember, it's a semi-bluff. It's major purpose is to get the opponent to fold. If you get called you need to get lucky to win.

And also it sucks to have to play AA out of position with two people calling that bet on the flop. You can probably check the turn and re-evaluate fairly. No need to push.

10-23-2005, 08:33 PM

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with raising. I was saying that because of the raise, and the bet on the flop, you can't expect an 8 to help him. Therefore, its not really a scare card.

And I know its a semibluff. I just think its an unecessary risk of chips in this ocassion. You are beat right now, and you have the option of a freecard to majorly help you. Take that option, and if you don't improve on the river, then you can decide to bluff.

PokerCat69

10-23-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given that, you're effectively playing off a draw, forget your 8 pair. Would you have pushed without the 8? Then why push WITH the 8?

[/ QUOTE ]
The pair of 8's is likely no good by itself, but it does provide Hero with an addition 5 outs to hit trips/2Pair.
Granted this new draw isn't very strong, but it does help indeed.

ericlambi

10-23-2005, 09:03 PM

I don't like the second hand because I think against decent opponents you only get called by hands that beat you and possibly AQ, but probably not even that.

I might have raised more pre-flop with a raise and a caller. You are almost guaranteed to get called at least once, and probably twice. Make it $10 or $12 -- people hate folding to limp re-raisers, and it isn't a disaster if you only win $5. You are out of position and its hard to fold AA.

gulebjorn

10-24-2005, 02:59 AM

Hmm...

push, don't push, check, don't check, free card, no free card...

nobody seems to agree on anything here

Anyone else?

xorbie

10-24-2005, 03:46 AM

I think in Hand 1 if he is going to fold to your "bluff" then it is very likely your pair of 8's is good (that is, he could have 77, 44 or something).

gulebjorn

10-24-2005, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think in Hand 1 if he is going to fold to your "bluff" then it is very likely your pair of 8's is good (that is, he could have 77, 44 or something).

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he could fold an overpair here?

xorbie

10-24-2005, 03:53 AM

Maybe.

ludo72

10-24-2005, 05:07 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($340.36)
SB ($102.25)
BB ($130.04)
Hero ($100)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $2.50, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($9) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $6, SB raises to $12, BB calls $12, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($45) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets $20, BB calls $20, Hero calls $85 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $170

gulebjorn

10-24-2005, 06:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($340.36)
SB ($102.25)
BB ($130.04)
Hero ($100)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $2.50, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($9) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $6, SB raises to $12, BB calls $12, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($45) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets $20, BB calls $20, Hero calls $85 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $170

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that would've been nice.