Hated this, what should I have done (Stars 16 Turbo)

[Melchiades]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1120)
MP1 (t1650)
MP2 (t1340)
MP3 (t1590)
CO (t1460)
Button (t1510)
SB (t1840)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1490)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t60</font>, MP1 calls t60, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t60, Button calls t60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t510</font>, UTG+1 calls t450, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button calls t450.

Flop: (t1665) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t330</font>, UTG+1 calls t330, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t690</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t3015

Made the overraise preflop because I was in no way interested in a domino effect 5 way pot with QQ. And just picking up 300 wouldn't be to bad. Post flop, should I just check/fold? Made the small bet to make it look like I want action, waste of 330 obv.

Argh! I donked this bad I felt. Ugly, ugly hand. Maybe I should just push this preflop since I have no idea how to play it postflop postflop?

[Oluwafemi]

why did you reraise so much pf?

[hockeyf]

check/fold that flop and save your chips.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
check/fold that flop and save your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

and on top of that either call pf with this many players or make a lower reraise. this is still only a $16 and players with big Aces and Kings will still come along for the ride. without being all-in, you lost more than you had to with Q Q on this hand, especially with [ 2 ] overcards on the flop.

[lastchance]

Check fold the flop. I only raise to t300-400 or so preflop as well. I don't call QQ in a $16.

[Melchiades]

Didn't think it was unlikely both were on mid pocket pairs. The big preflopraise is to take down the pot there and then or get it HU. If I raised to for example 200 and UTG+1 calls, I'm pretty sure the rest comes along as well. So then I get to play QQ in a 5 way pot OOP(basicly play it for setvalue), I don't want that.

I could just call as you said, but that seems a little bit too weak.

[Melchiades]

Check-fold is pretty obvious when I look at it now. Just in the heat of the moment I was a bit too worked up seeing that [censored] flop. Too stubborn and didn't want to make a huge raise only to check fold. If you only raise to 300-400 in this situation 90% of the time it will be a multiway pot. And if you should then check fold any flop with overcards I think I prefer pushing PF even if the blinds are micro. There is still possible to just increase my stck 20% right there and then.

[bluefeet]

OOP to the flop, with THIS many already in, I'd choose to lurk in the weeds here with my QQ. Call PF, check-raise (as much as AI if the action dictates so) a non-A/K flop...check/fold with the overs on board.

Over-reraising PF should have been more effective. But regardless, your reraise was too big. Reraising to t250ish will often get you HU...still understanding that the likely caller is holding a large Ace.

Even though a mid-PP is just as likely a caller of a PF reraise, your positional disadvantage - and now a HUGE pot, makes taking the lead on an over-flop very dicey.

Meh...the whole situation sucks really. 5 to the flop, you could be facing all kinds of draws, flopped two-pairs, etc.etc.etc.

Fold PF /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Check fold the flop. I only raise to t300-400 or so preflop as well. I don't call QQ in a $16.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you don't but with 4 players already in the pot, i'm looking at how Q Q will fare postflop [this is a $16]. i've definitely called in this spot several times and avoided losing not only alot of chips, but my shirt in the process. i'm figuring that you're up against at least 2 players in this hand that have at least [1] of their cards as an Ace or a King. i'd rather play my Qs against one or two opponents. once you get over [3], that's when problems can happen. if 4 people are already in the pot pf for 60 and you look down Queens, i'm thinking who's suited, who has overcards, who has A K/A Q, and A A/K K?

[splashpot]

Raise to 250-300 preflop. And definately check/fold that flop. You gotta learn to let go of QQ. I'd check/fold KK on an A high flop against 2 opponents a lot of the time.

[Melchiades]

No one considers just pushing this preflop and picking up the dead chips, hopefully get a donk to call with AJ or TT?

[splashpot]

The pot is still way too small to push preflop.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
No one considers just pushing this preflop and picking up the dead chips, hopefully get a donk to call with AJ or TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

1470 for 285 (SB + BB + 240 [60*4])? no. that's scared poker.
if you get called you better definitely count on seeing A A, A K, and K K. i doubt someone is calling you with A J and although i've seen it with 10 10, i haven't seen it often enough, especially when it's so early.

[Melchiades]

You don't play at the same tables as me then. It's unbelievable what people call with when they think someone is trying to buy the pot. There is no AA/KK around this table unless UTG+1 decided to get cute.

[Melchiades]

Agreed that it is scared poker, but when I manage to lose chips on this flop I have all reason to be scared. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't play at the same tables as me then. It's unbelievable what people call with when they think someone is trying to buy the pot. There is no AA/KK around this table unless UTG+1 decided to get cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

keyword [cute]. i don't play the $16s, i play the $5.50s and $11s. i'm prefectly aware of what these players will call with. there's not really too much of a difference in play.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed that it is scared poker, but when I manage to lose chips on this flop I have all reason to be scared. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

the point is, [you didn't have too]. as soon as your huge reraise got called [by more than one villain], an Ace or a King should've been first and foremost in your mind. this was a perfect example of a flop to check/fold and avoid investing anymore chips.

[Melchiades]

What I meant was that 95% of the times there is no AA/KK here with this betting. I'm willing to bust the 5 times out of 100 there is. The 5 times UTG+1 gets cute.

I do not think pushing is bad because I might be called by AA/KK. Pushing is probably bad because I make more money reraising smaller or calling. I don't hate pushing though, considering that I will get called by dominated hands more times that one would expect.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
What I meant was that 95% of the times there is no AA/KK here with this betting. I'm willing to bust the 5 times out of 100 there is. The 5 times UTG+1 gets cute.

I do not think pushing is bad because I might be called by AA/KK. Pushing is probably bad because I make more money reraising smaller or calling. I don't hate pushing though, considering that I will get called by dominated hands more times that one would expect.

[/ QUOTE ]

i also think you will make more over the long run reraising less and playing more superior postflop. likewise i feel you will lose less in the long run both because you haven't committed so many chips and then having to fold on the flop or lose everything when you get called either by A A/K K or some crackpot with way worse.

[Melchiades]

No matter how much I raise though, with two callers the size of the pot will be so big that I wish you good luck outplaying anyone postflop with superior postflop play. It will be more or less a question of putting it all in there or check/fold.

Lose less is totally irrelevant. I wanna make the play that on average wins me the most. Folding here would be the way to lose the least on this hand in the long run. Flawed thinking.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter how much I raise though, with two callers the size of the pot will be so big that I wish you good luck outplaying anyone postflop with superior postflop play. It will be more or less a question of putting it all in there or check/fold.

Lose less is totally irrelevant. I wanna make the play that on average wins me the most. Folding here would be the way to lose the least on this hand in the long run. Flawed thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, reraising less then folding or calling then folding will lose the least in this hand in the long run. if you have an edge postflop on your opponents [which is not incredibly hard in a $16] you don't need luck---they do. superior postflop play also includes check/folding in a situation where two villains called your huge reraise postflop and you face an extremely likely bet with two overcards on the flop. i'm looking to lose the least possible with hands like 10 10-Q Q at these levels, especially when i know my opponents calling ranges include so many combos with Aces and Kings. nothing flawed about that.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Lose less is totally irrelevant. I wanna make the play that on average wins me the most.quote]

losing less is never irrelevant. if you're gonna make the play that on average wins you the most, you also wanna make the play that on average loses you the least. if you're not concerned with how much you lose as opposed to how much you win, you've got a big problem. tell me you see that.

[Melchiades]

This betting signals I have the best hand preflop by far. I don't care about taking an action that will lose me less, I have the best hand here, I'm gonna win a big pot. I care about taking the action that will be most +EV in the long run. Pushing here is clearly +EV. Reraising is most likely even more +EV. But this "losing less" nonsense is irrelevant. I'm only interested in the action that is most +EV. You argued against pushing preflop because it could lose me more than raise/fold. I don't see the point. Pushing is +EV.

[Melchiades]

One last try. The biggest reason reraising is more +EV is that it will get more money in the pot most of the time. Pushing scares people away. Pushing does not lose me more, it wins me less.

Pushing is bad because most of the time we only pick up the dead money. Not because once in a blue moon UTG+1 has AA/KK or that we get sucked out by AJ.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
One last try. The biggest reason reraising is more +EV is that it will get more money in the pot most of the time. Pushing scares people away. Pushing does not lose me more, it wins me less.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation, you're probably right. But if the blinds were smaller, you would be wrong.

Consider this hypothetical situation: Heads up with even 1 million chip stacks and 1/2 blinds. You are dealt QQ every hand. Pushing loses you money because he obviously won't call you without AA.

[Melchiades]

"Pushing loses you money because he obviously won't call you without AA."

Obviously. Here I will get called by worse hands way way more often than someone have been tricky with AA/KK though.

[splashpot]

All I'm saying is that pushing is usually wrong when the pot is small.

[curtains]

Your preflop raise was quite reasonable, however I would give up and just check fold this flop, as painful as it is.

[Melchiades]

Yeah I knew my postflop play was real bad even before posting it. Classic "can't let go of big pocket pair syndrome".

[adanthar]

The reraise is fine provided you thought you'd get a call. If you thought you'd get the pot there I'd have made it 400 instead.

Also, the rest of this thread between your post and curtains is, like, really really bad.

Also, pushing preflop does not only get called by kings. If it does in your games, stop playing them because you've managed to pick the toughest 16 dollar SNG's on the Internet and your game selection needs work.

Also, check/fold flop, etc. and I should stop typing out the word 'also' now so I will

[Melchiades]

My bet was designed to get the pot HU. I thought it needed to be this big. I do not get called by KK+ only here in 16's, I get called by all kinds of trash here. Mostly 55-TT AT-AQ thinking I'm trying to steal the pot. Once every now and then someone has AK. Almost never AA/KK.

[bawcerelli]

alot of medium pocket pairs will call a large bet like this. those goofballs. hey OP, what's your stars name? pm it to me will ya?

[Melchiades]

You wanna be at my table having read that HH don't you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bawcerelli]

ha ha. not really. it's just that at all of my tables there are 2 two guys that are always there. if you multitable like a madman you must be one of those guys.

Whenever I read responses like this I have to wonder if (s)he has noticed the size of the BB. Pushing right here is raising THIRTY TIMES THE BB! That's ridiculous! If the blinds were 50/100 or 75/150, then I understand the push with 10-15BBs. But not at the 15/30 level with 30BBs!

I always understood it as a general rule, if you are raising more than ~35% of your stack then you should instead push. Maybe pushing here is a little overkill but if the blinds were say 25/50, you'd need a raise of over t500 to get rid of people. Therefore, it should be a push.

Is this thinking sound?

[Melchiades]

Thats a good point. But I prefer to look at what I think the result of a push will be rather than having some set rules of what amout of BB's is accepted to push. If I had a read and felt confident I would get a call here I would push, no doubt. Also the amount of dead chips in the pot in relation to my stack comes into consideration. I do not advocate a push her, after all I didn't in the hand either. I tried to raise an amount that would get it HU. I raised a wooping 17 BB's here and got TWO callers, guess that doesn't exactly jive with your set amount of BB theory either. But I don't see the horror in a push that many of you do.

For example if you push AA preflop in a already raised pot in one of those 45 man 1.25$ SnG's in level one for example (75 BB's) you would be surprised how many times you would get the call and double up that you want.

[Pudge714]

If you are going to overraise push. You will be suprised what will call.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I knew my postflop play was real bad even before posting it. Classic "can't let go of big pocket pair syndrome".

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i mean by playing superior postflop play and having an edge on your opponents in that regard. honestly, if you feel you don't have an edge on your opponents postflop, [and i think think my response is about to fall somewhere in the realm of game theory], then your best play probably would have been to push all-in instead and count on a dominated hand calling you.

i feel you will encounter more situations postflop [against players with weaker hands] where you can extract more chips than an all-in move [at least i do]. this move is best played out on Party where an $11 or $22 only has an t800 starting stack. i like the move alot better then. however, with t1500 on PS, i don't favor it.

[Melchiades]

Exactly.

[Melchiades]

I am pretty confident in my postflop play. I donked it away here, but no biggie. I came back to 2000 in this SnG btw and then lost it all to the villain in this hand all in with AQ vs his A3. So he probably had a weak ace here as well.

I just don't see the big deal about the superior post flop play in this situation. When the pot is 1500+ and you have 1000 behind, there is no room to manouver.

If I remember correctly you advocated a smaller preflop raise. Why on earth would you do that, when this raise got two callers. You want more people in the pot?

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
I am pretty confident in my postflop play. I donked it away here, but no biggie. I came back to 2000 in this SnG btw and then lost it all to the villain in this hand all in with AQ vs his A3. So he probably had a weak ace here as well.

I just don't see the big deal about the superior post flop play in this situation. When the pot is 1500+ and you have 1000 behind, there is no room to manouver.

If I remember correctly you advocated a smaller preflop raise. Why on earth would you do that, when this raise got two callers. You want more people in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

i was talking about a smaller reraise, much like what everybody else has been saying maybe 300-400. with the blinds at 15-30, you have plenty to manuever if you have to check/fold and ditch the ladies. you also lose less . i'd rather have t1100-1200 than under t700. that's where superior postflop play and losing less come into play. i'm looking at my chances of making the money with less than t700 as oppossed to t1100-1200. i like my chances with a bigger stack.

[Melchiades]

Lose less. Ugh. You and me do not think about this game the same way. Lets just leave it at that.

I liked my preflop raise. I hated that I didn't check/fold.

[valenzuela]

I will give my opinion without reading other posts.
Raising to 300 seems standard to me. Plus betting 300 gives you a cushion should disaster strike on the flop.
Calling is horrible.
Going all-in is way too agressive, if youve seem some wild stuff it could be an option however( it doesnt seem to be the case here by looking at the stacks)
So I think raising to 300 is the correct play.
On the flop just check/fold man.( btw if u had bet 300 and got 2 callers you still check/ fold the flop)