This play needs a name...

[NLSoldier]

...because I love it.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $10.
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (4.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks,

Im open to suggestions for the name.

[Jerkass333]

Thats pretty badass. With one pair I'd check to induce a bluff too, but I usually feel like I have to bet with trips. Maybe a combination of the words Scrooge (becuase if you did this on christmas it would totally ruin his day) and pully becuase you're jerking this guy around. Hence, the scroo-pulley.

It's called the 1/2 punch.

The double dare? =/

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
The double dare? =/

[/ QUOTE ]

this looks like the early front runner.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
The double dare? =/

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, awesome.

Looks like this one is wrapped up. You need to patent another move though so we can call it the soiler.

[NLSoldier]

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The double dare? =/

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, awesome.

Looks like this one is wrapped up. You need to patent another move though so we can call it the soiler.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha ok.

does anyone have thoughts on this play? Or does everyone pretty much agree that it pwns.

[Lmn55d]

I like it overall but I think a lot of players will play like this without a draw. I see 7x play like this a lot and I doubt he'd bet the river. THere's also some smaller pocket pairs or like 88-99 who could play like this. Is there any chance he bluffraises the river with a missed draw or checked behind because he hit better trips or filled up? These are kind of remote but things to consider nonetheless.

[cartman]

I have a few questions. I never know what is betting material in spots like this. You bet the flop here 3rd to act out of 5 in an unraised pot. Would you guys also usually have bet 1st or 2nd to act? If not, what would your line have been in those seats?

Also, would you guys typically bet the river here with just one pair of Tens (assume the turn was a blank) or would you check and call? What about with a 7?

Thanks,
Cartman

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
does everyone pretty much agree that it pwns?

[/ QUOTE ]
id imagine!

[Emperor]

Is this a joke post? Cuz I don't get it at all...

Someone please splain it to the HUSH noob... (me)

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke post? Cuz I don't get it at all...

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you never checked the river again after whiffing on a turn CR?

If not, you should try it sometime. Its awesome.

[fyodor]

I think the 3rd spade in this example just makes it look like the old "pussy on the river" play.

If the flush wasn't there, then it gets a new name.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the 3rd spade in this example just makes it look like the old "pussy on the river" play.

If the flush wasn't there, then it gets a new name.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? I checked intending to CR. Was that not super obvious?

[fyodor]

Yeah I realize that, but with the flush it "looks" like you wimped. I'm just saying the particular example wasn't perfect because of that possible perception.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I realize that, but with the flush it "looks" like you wimped. I'm just saying the particular example wasn't perfect because of that possible perception.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares what it "looks like" if he extracts the guy's teeth?

[lautzutao]

Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The play is the exact opposite of a donk.
A reverse donk should be called a knod.

"You gave him the KNOD." Double meaning....also, the go-ahead to bet. The Knod.

[fyodor]

Ok I'm sorry I brought it up

[ QUOTE ]
Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Considering that the OP is NLSoldier, the answer is probably yes.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

lol not if you can give some good reasoning. why dont you like it?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Considering that the OP is NLSoldier, the answer is probably yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh stfu.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
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Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Considering that the OP is NLSoldier, the answer is probably yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was complimenting you!!!!!!

if someone was gonna insult you they'd say something like "this play is worse than using a toothbrush as a sex toy!!!"

[NLSoldier]

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Am I going to get flamed if I say I don't like it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Considering that the OP is NLSoldier, the answer is probably yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was complimenting you!!!!!!

if someone was gonna insult you they'd say something like "this play is worse than using a toothbrush as a sex toy!!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[lautzutao]

Well, aren't you going to be swallowing back vomit if this river isn't bet here by villian?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, aren't you going to be swallowing back vomit if this river isn't bet here by villian?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he checks through with a 7 or PP then yes. But those are not very likely of flop raising hands for him imo. If he checks through with a draw thats fine, our only chance of making anything was by inducing a bluff anywyas. More likely he has a pair he that will bet, that he checked the turn with to avoid the CR.

[lautzutao]

But with a checked through turn, aren't we more likely to get called here anyway if we bet? Inducing a bet doesn't seem like it's something I want to be doing often. Too much risk in it backfiring to me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I guess if you have a read on villian saying he's going to bet here then yeah that's great. But you seem to be making a general statement that this play is good to try . You didn't provide enough info for me on when this play is the [censored]...

[Jeff W]

I'd call it "I should have donk bet the turn."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[surfdoc]

How about the "fold preflop play".

Seriously though, is this a standard limp? Even with a poster it feels wrong from MP.

[imported_CaseClosed326]

The double freebee?
Or just "The free showdown with a strong hand"

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call it "I should have donk bet the turn."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a new winner.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd call it "I should have donk bet the turn."

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a new winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think so. if we donk and he has a king hes just gonna calldown. if we check and he bets and we CR he will also calldown, if we check and he checks, we can just CR the river and make the same as we would ahve by donking.

[ArturiusX]

You're forgetting the times he'll fold to our check-raise, which will happen.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting the times he'll fold to our check-raise, which will happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

not when he has a king.

[DeathDonkey]

Wow you really are a rock. Easy easy overlimp for me. T9s I'd raise to isolate without the poster..

-DeathDonkey

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[Trix]

meh, you can go for the CR anyway if he just calls the turn.

[surfdoc]

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Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
meh, you can go for the CR anyway if he just calls the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ooo good point.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a few questions. I never know what is betting material in spots like this. You bet the flop here 3rd to act out of 5 in an unraised pot. Would you guys also usually have bet 1st or 2nd to act? If not, what would your line have been in those seats?

Also, would you guys typically bet the river here with just one pair of Tens (assume the turn was a blank) or would you check and call? What about with a 7?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

1st or 2nd to act I would rather CR at late position player. And probably check/call if the bet comes from an early pos. player.

With one pair of tens on the river, aftet the turn going check, check, yeah I would bet. WIth a 7 I think I check call.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some evidence as well. I'll play this if I'm confident there won't be a raise behind me, but it seems to me this hand becomes a loser when there's a late position raise.

[surfdoc]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some evidence as well. I'll play this if I'm confident there won't be a raise behind me, but it seems to me this hand becomes a loser when there's a late position raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when some TAG on the button sees a poster and knows that anyone with a reasonably strong hand would raise since the poster has a random hand. The bases get loaded up and pow!

[NLSoldier]

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Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some evidence as well. I'll play this if I'm confident there won't be a raise behind me, but it seems to me this hand becomes a loser when there's a late position raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when some TAG on the button sees a poster and knows that anyone with a reasonably strong hand would raise since the poster has a random hand. The bases get loaded up and pow!

[/ QUOTE ]

the button isnt raising after 2 limps and a poster without a legit hand. remove sand from vag plz.

[surfdoc]

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Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some evidence as well. I'll play this if I'm confident there won't be a raise behind me, but it seems to me this hand becomes a loser when there's a late position raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when some TAG on the button sees a poster and knows that anyone with a reasonably strong hand would raise since the poster has a random hand. The bases get loaded up and pow!

[/ QUOTE ]

the button isnt raising after 2 limps and a poster without a legit hand. remove sand from vag plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still waiting for PT data...

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
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Wow you really are a rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

but i already knew that, so really no need for the wow part.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is right biatch. Nobody can nit up a game like me.

I think you guys are getting carried away with this I'll isolate with 9Ts crap. I will be anxiously awaiting your PT screenshot that shows how profitable 9Ts or T8s is in this spot. I may very well be wrong and will gladly change my play when you convince with some data rather than the do this because i think it is good argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some evidence as well. I'll play this if I'm confident there won't be a raise behind me, but it seems to me this hand becomes a loser when there's a late position raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when some TAG on the button sees a poster and knows that anyone with a reasonably strong hand would raise since the poster has a random hand. The bases get loaded up and pow!

[/ QUOTE ]

the button isnt raising after 2 limps and a poster without a legit hand. remove sand from vag plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still waiting for PT data...

[/ QUOTE ]

PT data on how often the button raises after 2 limps an a post? Im pretty positive that no one has a big enough sample size, but I would bet its 10% or less unless button is a total donk.

[surfdoc]

No, sorry, my post was unclear. i don't think we will be able to determine the frequency with which we will be raised. I am just interested in seeing 8Ts being played profitably even by a guy with your amazing postflop skills /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]

With one pair of tens on the river, aftet the turn going check, check, yeah I would bet. WIth a 7 I think I check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call a river raise from an unknown with one pair of T's (assuming that is 2nd pair) after the turn goes check-check?

Thanks,
Cartman

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With one pair of tens on the river, aftet the turn going check, check, yeah I would bet. WIth a 7 I think I check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call a river raise from an unknown with one pair of T's (assuming that is 2nd pair) after the turn goes check-check?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

I think taht happens so raraly that I honestly dont want to spend the time thinking about it.

My tracker stats for T9s and T8s:

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7254/t9t80da.png
If even coldcalled with T9s if the situation was right (3 times out of 250,000 total hands).

Pokerroom.com ev stats for those hands:

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7892/t9t825xt.png

If average players from average positions (pokerroom.com)break even with T8s and win with T9s, apply the logic for a 'more favorable than average' situation like a limper and a poster. Sure you can get raised by a monster behind you, but that doesn't stop you from playing from the CO or Button with the blinds yet to act. Or maybe it does.

[surfdoc]

cool stuff thanks. Are those stats for shorthanded games? My understanding of pokerroom stuff is that it is full ring.

[ QUOTE ]
cool stuff thanks. Are those stats for shorthanded games? My understanding of pokerroom stuff is that it is full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, my stats are about 130K short games and 120K full games. I combined to two just to get a larger sample size. I can do just short if you'd like.

As far as pokerroom goes, they are a combination of all games as well. Once you start breaking it down by position and number of players, the accuracy of information really starts to deteriorate. Here (http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/evstats/expValue) , try it yourself.

[oreogod]

Actually King Yao is the real slim shady. If this play needs a name, hes the one that should give it. This is from a blog entry of his in May 2005. He also gives his reasons.





[ QUOTE ]

6 players 30-60

PreFlop:
I'm in big blind with AKo
UTG raises and UTG+1 calls. Both are new to me, but after two rounds, they seem to be fairly normal, nothing extreme.
I call because I am in horrible position to a UTG open-raiser and an early position cold caller. I want to see the Flop before I commit to the pot.

Flop: 9h-4c-9s rainbow
I check, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, I call.
I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do on the Turn. I'm thinking about check-calling it down, and letting AJ bet all the way, I don't think this is a good place to semi-bluff a check-raise on the Turn, the board is just not scary to a pair at all. Since I have AK, the two biggest scare cards make me the probable favorite. This means a Q or J are my best scare card semi-bluff check-raising cards, but they aren't that scary to someone who has TT. Therefore, I'm leaning towards just checking and calling...if no A or K shows up, I'm hoping he's got AQ or AJ.

Turn: Ah (two hearts on board now)
I check, looking to check-raise. He checks too. Did I miss a bet? Read on.

River: 3c - no possible flush.
Board: 9h-4c-9s-Ah-3c
Now I know how to get back the bet I missed on the Turn. I check. The combination of the check on the Turn and the River tells him that its doubtful I have an Ace. Who checks twice? Few people. It also tells me when he checked on the Turn he is likely to have a pocket pair. He is afraid of the Ace, yet he has a hand - so he doesn't need to use the Ace to bluff me out of the pot. Therefore, he's got a pocket pair.

I checked on the River, he bet, and I raised. He called. I won the pot.

So I won 2 bets on the Turn and the River combined. If I had bet out on the Turn, I would have only received a call on both Turn and River, thus winning the same thing. If he had bet on the Turn, then I would have probably made an extra bet if he had called my raise and called my River bet. The good thing here is I check-raised on the River after it the Turn was checked around, thus getting back the Turn bet that I "lost". If I had bet out on the River (after the Turn was checked), then I would have only made one bet...it was pretty clear he was going to bet the River with his pair (even though that's the wrong decision), so the check-raise was correct. I hope that makes sense. In the hand history, it showed he had 88.

Lessons to be learned:
1. Its ok to risk missing a bet if there is a good chance you can get the missed bet back on a later street while at the same time giving yourself an opportunity to win more (may have won 3 bets if he had bet on the Turn).

2. If you are playing against a solid player, don't be so sure about betting at the end like this player did. What could and would I call with that he could beat? Not that many hands. His bet on the River was bad...yes, you want to be aggressive in shorthanded games, but not always. If he knew I was a fish, then he should have bet, but I was unknown to him. As I wrote in Chapter 15: The River of Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker, if you only have a 50% chance of having the best hand, and you are last to act, you should check. Go buy the book and read that chapter for further details /images/graemlins/smile.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

[Poldi]

Fold or call a reraise?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold or call a reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I get 3bet approximately never, but I probably call even though folding is probably correct.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]


the button isnt raising after 2 limps and a poster without a legit hand. remove sand from vag plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play with some LAGs who would raise on the button in this hand with a pretty wide range. It doesn't matter what he's holding, the point is that if you have to pay two bets to see the flop OOP, this hand becomes a marginal loser. That said, I think I'm playing it here unless I have a strong read on the button that says no.

I don't dislike your turn/river play here (I like "knod" btw, very clever), but I think it's a fancy, as in non-standard, play. I'm donking most of the time. I think it would depend on what I think villain thinks about me.

Also, IMO c/r-ing the river induces a retarded three-bet often enough that you have to call one more. That's one of the risks you take when you make this play.

[donger]

Doesn't villain have AQ or AJ here a good portion of the time? Those hands will probably pay off a river bet, but will almost always take the free showdown.

Like JeffW said, I think donking the turn is way better.. you avoid giving free cards to gutshots and it looks like you're an idiot who picked up a FD or decided to donk his pair of 7s, so you get raised if villain has a legit hand.

Whoever said 'the soiler' as a name for a play, that name rules.


Also, what do you guys call a CR-CR-bet line when defending your BB? Is that a bifecta?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold or call a reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I get 3bet approximately never, but I probably call even though folding is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

people fold trips? *tries to remember the last time he folded trips*

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what do you guys call a CR-CR-bet line when defending your BB? Is that a bifecta?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmm....that would be an exacta.

[Roland19]

This play should be called the "hypersexy," or the "illusionary erectile dysfunction." If you want short and concise, I might also call it simply "balls," with or without a "z" replacing the "s."