Few more hands from snowbank, shorthanded limit rookie [Archive]

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snowbank

10-22-2005, 07:01 PM

Advice greatly appreciated:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP folds, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Should I be calling the turn? River?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP calls, SB folds.

River: (8 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

If he bets the river, can I call?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG caps, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, CO raises, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, CO raises, Hero folds, UTG calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, CO bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Thoughts?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

No clue about this hand. ????

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Should I be playing it like this, or do I have no idea what I'm doing on this one?

All comments are appreciated. I've only been playing limit for a day or two. Going to try and move up as fast as I can. Thanks in advance for the help.

Jeff W

10-22-2005, 07:17 PM

-While not forbidden, its generally frowned upon to include multiple hands in the same post. Such posts often get fewer replies since people don’t want to take the time to read all the hands involved. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3716568&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I'm not busting your balls. I'm just letting you know that many people do not read multiple hand history posts.

10-22-2005, 07:20 PM

Hand 1: I'm pretty sure you played this right. Often in these situations people will c/r their two-pair.

Hand 2: Whether or not you bet this river depends on what sort of things the SB bets into the field with on the flop. If he only does top pair, theres a decent chance you are outkicked, so in this case, I would check behind. (also, if he is capable of c/r'ing the river you would be in for some bad times indeed here)

If he donks the river just call. The pot is big. You will win more than 1/9 times easily here.

Hand 3: This hand makes me sad. The pot is huge and worth fighting for (especially with the hand you have). I'd 3ball the flop here and try very hard to knock people out of the pot with raises if they insist on sticking around.
(note - dont go into check-call/fold mode automatically because a player caps. You give up way too much money this way)

Hand 4 - This hand is well played. The flop 3ball is for value and a free card. I would consider raising the river here since many player will try to pick up the pot on the river with a bet if the turn was checked through (and likely draws didnt come in)

Hand 5: This hand is good. Keep in mind though, if your opponent is able to raise their flush draw on the turn (with a paired board) as a semi-bluff, you should consider calling and then check-calling the river if it doesnt look like they hit anything. The idea behind the check-call on the river is that you wont get called by a worse hand, though you may induce a bluff from weaker hands like busted flush draws or even king high.

Dont try to move up as fast as you can. Just move up whenever you are comfortable and capable of doing so.

snowbank

10-22-2005, 07:53 PM

I'm not busting your balls. I'm just letting you know that many people do not read multiple hand history posts.

No, I appreciate it, thanks. I was going to post all in different posts, but didn't want to clog the forum. Have so many questions right now since I just started playing limit yesterday. Good lookin out.

TheMetetron

10-22-2005, 08:01 PM

Not only the don't post multiple hands in one thread guideline, but don't post so many hands in one day. Respond to other posts, ask questions there. You are already sort of clogging up the forum.

10-22-2005, 10:06 PM

I don't think you have been cluttering the forums. Either way, isn't too much interest in poker better than not enough? Onto the hands...

Hand 1: From my experience at 1/2, most players will only C/R the turn with the flopped trips or a made straight on the turn. This is very read dependant (what isn't in poker?), however, and calling down isn't bad. A LAG may wait for the turn to C/R a Q, but I have to think you are beat here more often than not. Without a read, the pot size and outs you may have probably justify a call down.

Hand 2: I check and call a bet if MP bets. I don't think you are giving up value since the only hands you beat now are A high or a smaller PP. It's close but you definately have to call if you do decide to check.

Hand 3: I can't see myself doing anything other than three betting that flop. This would have prevented the mayhem of having to call two bets cold on the turn. If CO still leads turn, I probably just call down.

Hand 4: The 3-bet worked quite well in buying you the free card. Well played hand overall.

Hand 5: I see myself playing it exactly the same way.

2+2 wannabe

10-23-2005, 06:03 AM

i'm curious as to how you don't raise the river in hand 1

jba

10-23-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm curious as to how you don't raise the river in hand 1

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, the correct move on the river in this hand is to scream "ONE TIME!!!" and hit the raise button. who cares if you are by yourself in your own house.

ChoicestHops

10-23-2005, 04:19 PM

1) Raise the river. If he has the queen then so be it, but likely he has the king for a worse full house.

2) I'd bet the river here - no action from MP showing he has a strong hand at the turn.

3) Tough hand here but I cap the flop and see how the action goes at the turn. You can be behind to AA or a set but the pot is too nice to fold with tptk.

4) I like the flop 3-bet as there are not many hands you are behind from here. Also gave you a free card at the turn. It's possible you are behind here on the river but I call for value - you have top pair.

5) Turn Im usually giving up this hand. Possible trips and flush draws where you have A high in a relatively small pot. I bet the flop here to see where Im at but the turn is a check for me.

10-23-2005, 06:31 PM

Hand 1
On the river what do you think he has? Not many hands beat you and ones that do are unlikely to be held by your opponent.

Hand 2
Yes you call a river bet. Check/Call is probably the best line if opponent is capable of folding. If he has Ax he might bluff on the river after your check.

Hand 3
I think you gave up to easy. CO coldcalled preflop and UTG capper went into call down mode. Then again this is 1/2. Kinda hard to say w/o reads.

Hand 4
Fine

Hand 5
Situation sucks. Your out of position, this is read dependent. Laying the hand down is fine. Almost no one at this limit will take notice of you folding into raises and try semibluffing you later.

I know you have the roll and ability to move up limits. The only really thing you will learn from 1/2 is value betting and the basic mechanics of Limit SH. You know SH already. Most of your fish are passive up to 5/10. Just try to learn the differences between no limit and limit shorthanded and you will be fine. 1/2 is almost a waste of time.

10-23-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
On the river what do you think he has? Not many hands beat you and ones that do are unlikely to be held by your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are thinking way too much about this. It's 1-2. I wouldnt be surprised to see the opponent holding pocket fives here.

10-23-2005, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
On the river what do you think he has? Not many hands beat you and ones that do are unlikely to be held by your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are thinking way too much about this. It's 1-2. I wouldnt be surprised to see the opponent holding pocket fives here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the tip. It really wasn't for you but for someone that clearly missed a value raise. Maybe getting him to think in this mode will enable him to figure these situations out when they are not so 1-2.

snowbank

10-24-2005, 02:17 PM

You are thinking way too much about this. It's 1-2. I wouldnt be surprised to see the opponent holding pocket fives here.

I want to play like I would at a higher level, since I want to be playing higher very soon. He actually ended up having a Q. If that Q doesn't fall, am I correct to assume most people would just call the river because their thinking is that if 3 Q's are on the board what are the chances he's got the 4th? Am I off, or is that accurate thinking of the people who would raise?

ddubois

10-24-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I want to play like I would at a higher level, since I want to be playing higher very soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be a strategic error. Poker is about adjusting to your opponents, and this skill becomes even more important at higher levels.

[ QUOTE ]
If that Q doesn't fall, am I correct to assume most people would just call the river because their thinking is that if 3 Q's are on the board what are the chances he's got the 4th?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. The number of ways for him to have a Q go way down once we see the river, so the likelihood that he had been with a straight or a king go way up, relatively.

Megenoita

10-24-2005, 07:16 PM

Hand 1: Raise the river! What do you think he has, quads? Definite raise. I do think you have to call the turn; it's so semi-bluff heavy.

Hand 2: I sometimes bet this, sometimes check/call. Folding is out of the question. If you are moving up in SH limits, get over folding /images/graemlins/smile.gif, especially on the river for one bet. Whether to bet or check/calld depends on your opponents and the board. Here, I'd probably bet because villain could be chasing overs the whole time and many smaller pieces will call.

Hand 3: 3-bet the flop. You are ahead most of the time here. If you are capped, you find out that you are behind more cheaply. The hand plays out differently from here. Given how you played the flop, folding the turn is good because it looks bad for you.

Hand 4: Great 3-bet. You have tons of equity and would love to check through a bad turn. Raise the river! Their turn check indicates weakness, and their river bet is communicating, "You're FOS and missed a draw, so my hand which was good enough to raise the flop (probably a J) is good enough to bet the river against a guy who checked through the turn and the BB who checked the river".

Hand 5: That's fine. This is where you will get into tougher situations at the higher levels. If the same guy keeps raising or c/r the turn against me, I'll pick a hand like this (paired board) to call down with A high and a good kicker. However, as a standard play, yes, you should bet the flop and continue the turn because A high is best most of the time there, and yes, you should fold to his raise. In general.

Some comments about all of your hands:

*You need to learn to play largely based on the specific player types. That means being keenly aware of stats.

*You need to be more aggressive. You missed like 3 raises in 5 hands. Don't be stupid aggressive, but think more about what hands villains could have. For instance with top pair on the river, villain raised the flop and called the 3-bet. Then he checked the turn. What could he have done that with? A draw, a pp, a T, a J. Your river makes you beat all those hands. It would be unlikely that he's ahead of you now. So thinking in those terms, you raise that river.

*Like others said, don't try to move up as fast as you can. Try to move up when you feel you own the level you're at. Right now, you don't. You are better than most players, but you're not owning them yet. Get there first. When you have the guts to raise rivers where you just peeled off top pair on a draw-heavy board, pushing smaller edges with no remorse, then you're on your way to pawning people.

*Definitely post one hand at a time. People crucify you here for not doing that /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

*From 1/2 (6) ($400) to 5/10 (6) playing until I had 800 BBs there, it took a couple of months, and I didn't think it was very hard at all. I ran well which was necessary for that kind of moving up, but the point is that once you learn the concepts of SH play, you apply them the same to each level, just to different players and different tendancies. There are just different styles at each level, and it gets a little tricker as you move up. But if you understand SH poker theoretically at 1/2, you'll be at 5/10 with little adjustment IMO.

10-24-2005, 07:31 PM

Hi Snowbank-

I'm new at shorthanded myself so take my response with a grain of salt. (I haven't read the other responses yet, by the way.)

1) Calling the turn is fine. He could have anything, this is shorthanded and a straight isn't guaranteed. Raise the river, you have a full house and will be seeing a straight or queens full of kings much more often than quads.

2) Fine. Sometimes I bet/fold this but it's OK to check call.

3) Three bet the flop, your hand is probably good now and your equity is unlikely to change much on the next street. This defines your hand better so that if it's two bets to you on the turn, you can safely fold without hating yourself in the morning.

4) If you're going to 3-bet the flop it's to buy outs and fold hands like Q2. With this logic you need to bet the turn to give you a better chance of winning the pot. If you're not trying to buy outs/bluff at the pot you need to call on the flop; your equity isn't high enough on the OESD + backdoor 3rd nut flush to 3 bet this because it doesn't buy you a free card often enough and there's no guarantee your queen will be good if you hit your backdoor.

5) Betting the flop is fine. Check the turn after he checks as he's either on a draw that won't fold or some sort of made hand. He's not folding this turn ever. Consider calling a bet on the river as you induced him to bluff with your turn check and your ace high might be good.

Snowbank, if you're a limit rookie you might consider taking your time in rushing your way up the limits. It certainly held true for me in ring games - get 10 to 20k hands per level before moving up and make sure you're rolled for it. Good hand posts, they were interesting even if five at a time is a bit much.