View Full Version : Flopping the 3rd nut flush...
...Well the 4th really. NL $100. Only 4 hand at the table and no stats/reads on anybody.
I have $135, villain has me covered.
3 limpers to me in the C/O I call w/J /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif, button calls, sb completes, bb checks
flop is A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Blinds check, UTG limper bets $4, I raise to $14, button pushes, UTG thinks forever and announces he's laying down a monster and folds...and I...call.
Ive seen all sorts of people limp in with KTs and even K9s. I think you're beat. Even if you arent beat, if he has the K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif you still might lose. I'd fold.
TrailofTears
10-22-2005, 01:22 PM
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Ive seen all sorts of people limp in with KTs and even K9s. I think you're beat. Even if you arent beat, if he has the K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif you still might lose. I'd fold.
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This is terrible advice. Unless you have a serious read on pusher, this is an easy call.
-T
It wasnt advice. Its an opinion based on my playstyle and expreience. If you figure, there is what... about $20 in the pot - Im not pushing 4x that on a bluff.
I'll be the first to admit though, I am not the most agressive player in the world. I tend to think in terms of money won/lost still.
TrailofTears
10-22-2005, 01:29 PM
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It wasnt advice. Its an opinion based on my playstyle and expreience. If you figure, there is what... about $20 in the pot - Im not pushing 4x that on a bluff.
I'll be the first to admit though, I am not the most agressive player in the world. I tend to think in terms of money won/lost still.
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FWIW, anything you post regarding a hand here is pretty much advice. Saying "I'd fold there b/c..." is advice. Advice is "opinion based on...experience", no?
Regardless, I expect a baby flush to push this more than the nut flush. Also, I would expect a push from lots of other hands (sets, 2pair, pair+NFD), and I will gladly call those hands. Come on, saying "he might have a K or Q of spades, and you might lose anyways" is bad. You know that.
-T
scrapperdog
10-22-2005, 01:30 PM
If he had the nut flush it seems he might show some restraint and not push right away. Yes you re-raise the re-raise but not so much that you make it easy for a lower flush to drop. There are 2 more streets to get the money in, this does seem a little strange.
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FWIW, anything you post regarding a hand here is pretty much advice. Saying "I'd fold there b/c..." is advice. Advice is "opinion based on...experience", no?
Regardless, I expect a baby flush to push this more than the nut flush. Also, I would expect a push from lots of other hands (sets, 2pair, pair+NFD), and I will gladly call those hands. Come on, saying "he might have a K or Q of spades, and you might lose anyways" is bad. You know that.
-T
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Fair enough. I dont mind being wrong if someone explains to me why I am. After all, thats why we're here right?
SO now that I think about it, you're right. If I have the nut flush and just got raised, why not call and see what else I can get out of him. A push is as likely to be folded, as not.
Yeah - im seeing that now.
I have a LONG way to go.
TrailofTears
10-22-2005, 01:38 PM
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Yeah - im seeing that now.
I have a LONG way to go.
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We all have a long way to go, or we'd be playing 50/100NL, not .5/1NL.
Working through these things is helpful to everyone. Keep posting and asking questions, and if you are wrong, someone will point it out. No big deal.
-T
P.S. I am wrong a fair amount too, but usually more when I am actually playing. Having five minutes to think about a hand makes it much easier.
scrapperdog
10-22-2005, 01:56 PM
This seems to depend on how much money was in the pot already. At this poing less than 1/5 of the op's stack is in there ... would the nut flush really push this hard? If half the money was in already and he felt you were commited to you hand then yes he would push it most of the time. If you add in the fact that the person that folded probably had a flush as well that puts this over the top. Pretty rare 3 people have a flush when it flops.
Remember we are talking about a 100$ table here and not a 25 cent party table, that makes a difference imo.
orange
10-22-2005, 02:09 PM
Call, and expect to see a baby flush, 2-pair, or a set. Most fish flat call the raise with the NF or K-Flush. Button is trying to protect his hand IMO.
This is a very tricky situation. True, I agree that why would someone with the nut flush push that hard on the flop? But even if the villian has the K/images/graemlins/club.gif or Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, there is risk of him losing out to the nuts (a potential straight flush) if a 4th /images/graemlins/club.gif scare card appears on the turn or river.
So villian (if he has K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif)may be thinking that if the hero flopped ANY flush, then there is a high probability that the hero will still call his all-in reraise and get the big pay off. If hero folds, then the villian still avoids the potential situation of a 4th /images/graemlins/club.gif showing up and causing him to lose so why even go there. Alternatively, villian may have flopped trips and the push is to force flush chasers to lay down their hand but this would be a horrible move on villian's part.
Regards, Steve
Rooger
10-22-2005, 02:17 PM
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Ive seen all sorts of people limp in with KTs and even K9s. I think you're beat. Even if you arent beat, if he has the K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif you still might lose. I'd fold.
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This is terrible advice. Unless you have a serious read on pusher, this is an easy call.
-T
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Agreed. You might lose to a higher flush, but more often you'll be up against a set, nut-flush draw or two pair. If the A/images/graemlins/club.gif hadn't been on the board it might've been a more difficult call, but I'd probably still call.
Button showed 33 and filled up on the river?
I agree with scrapper, a higher flush isn't likely to be pushing with the button and all this action in front of him. Not to say that some people wouldn't push here with the nut flush. Either way, this is an auto-call.
stu-unger
10-22-2005, 02:46 PM
i think villains range is higher flush, smaller flush, set, 2 pair, pair + draw, lone K /images/graemlins/club.gif, and some other nonsense. i think we are well ahead of his range here. i say all u can eat, baby...
J Chap
10-22-2005, 02:52 PM
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Alternatively, villian may have flopped trips and the push is to force flush chasers to lay down their hand but this would be a horrible move on villian's part.
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Is that really horrible? Can you explain what you would do with your set here? Are you laying it down on the assumption that one of your three opponents flopped the flush? Or is it that plus the possibility that they'll stick around with their K /images/graemlins/club.gif ?
Thanks,
J Chap
scrapperdog
10-22-2005, 03:04 PM
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i think villains range is higher flush, smaller flush, set, 2 pair, pair + draw, lone K /images/graemlins/club.gif, and some other nonsense. i think we are well ahead of his range here. i say all u can eat, baby...
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He dont have 2 pair. He has a set, a baby flush, nut flush draw, or nut flush. Of all the options I would say baby flush or a set who thinks all but the nut flush will fold and even if he is called he has outs are the most likley. All you can eat baby lol I love that quote.
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Alternatively, villian may have flopped trips and the push is to force flush chasers to lay down their hand but this would be a horrible move on villian's part.
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Is that really horrible? Can you explain what you would do with your set here? Are you laying it down on the assumption that one of your three opponents flopped the flush? Or is it that plus the possibility that they'll stick around with their K /images/graemlins/club.gif ?
Thanks,
J Chap
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Even though the question was for him, I'll answer with what I'd do.
First, I don't think pushing here is horrible with the set. However, I would just call from the button with a set. My plan would be to see the turn before I make my move. If the 4th club comes on the turn, I'm not losing all my money here. Obviously, I'd want to board to pair. But if the turn doesn't pair the board or bring the 4th club, now I'm probably losing all my money unless the action from the hero and UTG make it blatantly obvious someone has the flush.
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Call, and expect to see a baby flush, 2-pair, or a set. Most fish flat call the raise with the NF or K-Flush. Button is trying to protect his hand IMO.
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Well I was the villian in this hand and wanted to see if anybody folds his hand. I guess not.
The above quote is exactly why I pushed. Reverse psycho I guess, but I don't consider myself a fish /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. I had Q7s
stu-unger
10-22-2005, 03:45 PM
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Alternatively, villian may have flopped trips and the push is to force flush chasers to lay down their hand but this would be a horrible move on villian's part.
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Is that really horrible? Can you explain what you would do with your set here? Are you laying it down on the assumption that one of your three opponents flopped the flush? Or is it that plus the possibility that they'll stick around with their K /images/graemlins/club.gif ?
Thanks,
J Chap
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Even though the question was for him, I'll answer with what I'd do.
First, I don't think pushing here is horrible with the set. However, I would just call from the button with a set. My plan would be to see the turn before I make my move. If the 4th club comes on the turn, I'm not losing all my money here. Obviously, I'd want to board to pair. But if the turn doesn't pair the board or bring the 4th club, now I'm probably losing all my money unless the action from the hero and UTG make it blatantly obvious someone has the flush.
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i get my money in with a set on monotone boards without a read that tells me otherwise...
scrapperdog
10-22-2005, 03:52 PM
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Call, and expect to see a baby flush, 2-pair, or a set. Most fish flat call the raise with the NF or K-Flush. Button is trying to protect his hand IMO.
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Well I was the villian in this hand and wanted to see if anybody folds his hand. I guess not.
The above quote is exactly why I pushed. Reverse psycho I guess, but I don't consider myself a fish /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. I had Q7s
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I said if you have the nut flush you dont push in this situation. You did not have the nut flush.
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i get my money in with a set on monotone boards without a read that tells me otherwise...
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Granted this situation has only come up maybe 3 times in the 60k NL cash games that I have. I've lost each time.
I just found it interesting now because I played a tournament this weekend, and a monotone board hit the flop, and I made a set. I bet, he raised, and I pushed because I didn't think he had it. He folded, and I was happy to take it down right there.
So I can definitely see someone pushing with a set, or even top 2 pair. Its more unlikely, to me, that someone pushes with the nut flush, or the 2nd flush. In this case someone did, and because of this logic, he got a caller. Reverse psychology works as well ;o
TheWorstPlayer
10-22-2005, 04:51 PM
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easy call for me
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3rdEye
10-23-2005, 03:47 PM
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Ive seen all sorts of people limp in with KTs and even K9s. I think you're beat. Even if you arent beat, if he has the K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif you still might lose. I'd fold.
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Even if you knew he flopped a set, would you fold? Because you'll lose more often to a set than someone drawing to the bare Kc or Qc.
I am not even sure what all the discussion is about? Do you really fold this because you are scared of either a K or Q high flush? I am calling. If he has a better flush, reload. I am not folding here and don't understand for the life of me why anyone would. Are we really scared of a K or Q high flush? You can't play winning poker if you play every hand like someone else has the nuts. Very easy call IMO, and all the more so because Hero is not really that deep.
scrapperdog
10-23-2005, 05:30 PM
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I am not even sure what all the discussion is about? Do you really fold this because you are scared of either a K or Q high flush? I am calling. If he has a better flush, reload. I am not folding here and don't understand for the life of me why anyone would. Are we really scared of a K or Q high flush? You can't play winning poker if you play every hand like someone else has the nuts. Very easy call IMO, and all the more so because Hero is not really that deep.
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Call because the villian did not play the hand like someone with a nut flush would play it. Change the action a little bit and you have a tough decision. Calling all-in bets because you are not "scared" is not a good reason. This pot was unraised and I dont see a reason to go broke with the 3rd flush in it unless you have a reason to believe that the villan does not have the nut flush, which you do in this this case. Against certain types of tight players who do not take a lot of chances and who played it like the nut flush this would be a bad call.
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Call because the villian did not play the hand like someone with a nut flush would play it. Change the action a little bit and you have a tough decision. Calling all-in bets because you are not "scared" is not a good reason. This pot was unraised and I dont see a reason to go broke with the 3rd flush in it unless you have a reason to believe that the villan does not have the nut flush, which you do in this this case. Against certain types of tight players who do not take a lot of chances and who played it like the nut flush this would be a bad call.
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Yes if the action were different, I don't think I would give the same advice. I do not think anyone should be worried about having the 2nd or 3rd best hand because of the way the hand played out.
The "not being scared" advice here is referring to this particular hand. I don't think I either stated or implied that always calling with a Jack high flush here to be correct, but in this particular instance it is.
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