The dreaded turn CR [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

10-22-2005, 08:54 AM

I just hate the turn CR when I have TPGK. It seems to happen atleast 1/100 and I hate it equally much every time. Is there a good defense against it. What stats do you look for when you decide to call or fold or 3-bet? I am mostly looking at their vip and aggression factor and if there is a flush draw out there. But its still very hard. Now onto the hands.

Here I think I have a monster HU and will go for the CR(haha eat that scum). Villain however cleverly reraised me. Now I am thinking that villain maybe puts me on a pair of queens so I call down. I also have around 4 outs imo(1 ace and 3 K).

Villain is weak tight preflop and extremely aggressive postflop(20/8/4).

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (6 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB.

Here villain CRs me and I just call down hating every BB i put in the pot but cant fold TPTK. Villain is 26/10/3 so he is somewhat restricitve pf but very aggressive post flop.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (5 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 folds, CO raises, 1 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.00 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB.

10-22-2005, 10:52 AM

these donkeys on party will raise with almost anything, he could have ace with bad kicker or whatever, i cant tell u how many times ive been beaten with AQ,AK after hitting an ace on the flop.....what they usually turn over is Ace rag with two pair

10-22-2005, 10:58 AM

Yes they usually do that. But is there a counter? Can I actually fold TPTK on the turn HU?

Guruman

10-22-2005, 11:07 AM

--blind response--

hand 1:
I like the idea of waiting for the turn to raise here as you're heads up and likely to get another BB or 2 from a losing hand. I think you'll see a naked A or Q here far more often than you'll see 22 or 33 from the villain, so the calldowns seems fine. AA and AQ also look completely out of the picture because of the preflop action.

Also, you're waaay undervaluing your hand here vs any two pair that villain could hold. If villain has an underplayed AQ (or something like A2 or A3) you have more than four outs to win.

Assuming AQ, you've got three 2s and three 3s to chop, to go along with your three kings and two aces to win. If villain has something like Q2, then you gain six more outs to win if you spike two pair and get aces up.

I probably play it the same. (also, there is no checkraise going on here. That was a bet/reraise)

hand2:

This looks like a spot where villain waited for the turn to raise, either by design or by catching a J. Either way, you still have 6 outs to chop or win if the board pairs and you make aces up. Calling here looks ok, and it will pick off any overplayed naked Ace or something crazy like KK or a total bluff. I like the river. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

numeri

10-22-2005, 11:08 AM

Hmmm... neither of these has a CR anywhere. Do you know what it stands for? It's Check/Raise - meaning you first check on a street, villain bets, and then you raise. I don't see any of those here.

Raise the flop in hand 1. This could easily be a flush draw or weaker TP. Hand 2 looks OK, IMO.

numeri

10-22-2005, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming AQ, you've got three 2s and three 3s to chop, to go along with your three kings and two aces to win.

[/ QUOTE ]
We only have 3 king outs. If a 2 or 3 hits, villains has a better two pair. If an A hits, villain has a full house.

10-22-2005, 11:16 AM

Yeah I got it mixed up. But I still hate to get raised on the turn. Either being in position or OOP.

10-22-2005, 11:19 AM

You see no value in waiting for the turn to raise him?

Would you lay the river down UI in hand one considering the way I played it?

If I raise the flop he calls and then CR the turn. Can I lay it down on the river UI?

numeri

10-22-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You see no value in waiting for the turn to raise him?

Would you lay the river down UI in hand one considering the way I played it?

If I raise the flop he calls and then CR the turn. Can I lay it down on the river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if you smooth-call the flop, you're waiting for a safe turn card to raise, right? How is this turn card safe?

There's almost no way I'm laying down TPTK HU in these pots. Maybe that's why my winrate isn't where I want it to be, but it seems pretty foolish. Maybe others will have a different plan.

10-22-2005, 11:38 AM

I would say that every turn card is a safe one when we hold that hand HU. Its just a matter of extracting the most.

10-22-2005, 12:54 PM

hand 1:
I am raising this flop.
i am raising this turn (what c/r?). I call down the 3 bet and call the river. Looks like he made some cruddy 2pr

hand 2:
turn: no c/r here either. I just might 3-bet, but that's a bit spewy. I would probably call the turn, and lead the river, calling his raise. His stop & go could mean a monster or he's trying to regain control of the hand with a weaker one.