Winning, losing, sucess and failure

[barongreenback]

Can anyone recommend any (non poker) links to good articles discussing these kind of issues. In particular, the unlying pschology behind two seemingly contradictary subjects, fear of failure and the desire to lose.

I know this is a very broad question but I'm not yet sure what I'm looking for.

Thanks,
James

[BluffTHIS!]

Although you specified not poker related, The Zen of Poker deals with these issues. So does Killer Poker by Vorhaus. You can also check out Poker, Sex and Dying for psychological profiles and motivations of different personality/psychological types.

The thing is not to be concerned about winning/losing but rather about making correct decisions day in and day out, whether in poker or other endeavors or life in general. Thus you focus on the process and not the result. Zen and the Art of Archery and other Zen books would also be helpful. Note that I am a Christian, and that when I recommend Zen, I am referring to philosophical Zen and not Buddhist/religious Zen, though of course Buddhists would say they cannot be separated, the same as I would say various teachings of Jesus cannot be separated from the rest of his teachings.

[barongreenback]

Thanks.
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is not to be concerned about winning/losing but rather about making correct decisions day in and day out

[/ QUOTE ]
I like Feeney's writing on this. His connection with self esteem issues rings true. It's clearly not logical to make my happiness or sense of worth dependant on things beyond my control. As in many things, though, I find a lag between understanding and acceptance.

I think, maybe, I posted this because I was curious as to how such an impractical state of mind has become so natural. Where does it come from? How much is cultural?
[ QUOTE ]
I am referring to philosophical Zen and not Buddhist/religious Zen, though of course Buddhists would say they cannot be separated

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't find the distinction critical myself but then I also make less distinction than most between Christianity and Zen or the other major religions. They seek the same truth and that is more likely to be found in what is universal rather than in what is separate.

James

[27offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone recommend any (non poker) links to good articles discussing these kind of issues. In particular, the unlying pschology behind two seemingly contradictary subjects, fear of failure and the desire to lose.

I know this is a very broad question but I'm not yet sure what I'm looking for.

Thanks,
James

[/ QUOTE ]

To be a success, grasshopper, you must first begin by spelling success correctly. Then and only then can the lesson begin.


<gong>

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I find a lag between understanding and acceptance.

I think, maybe, I posted this because I was curious as to how such an impractical state of mind has become so natural. Where does it come from? How much is cultural?

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite what many believe in thinking that Zen is primarily about meditating and striving for esoteric meaning, Zen places great emphasis on action and on seeing reality without preconceived filtering and making distinctions. Thus you focus on the precise stage of a hand in play, and not on the result of that hand or a series of hands. You focus on the now and take the action appropriate for it. This focus is the result of continual practice, and meditation when not playing helps you to do this. You keep studying poker theory every day and strive to put it into practice the best you can at each stage of a hand (should I fold because I am beat, or raise to take control of the hand and set up a bluff on the river/ am I getting correct pot odds to draw out/ can I raise with the 2nd best hand now so as to buy outs that will be good only headsup etc.).

So if you do "understand", then that is actually "acceptance". What you really lack is that focus on the present moment which leads to more correct action, and which comes only through continual practice.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
you must first begin by spelling success correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/blush.gif Not good. I'm excusing myself on 'psychology', though. That word has far too many consecutive consonants. It seems wrong not to leave an odd one out.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
So if you do "understand", then that is actually "acceptance"

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, true clarity does cut through conflict. I used "understand" too loosely - it isn't always black and white. Still discredited ideas can continue to persist. They can stick around for some time due to habit but, over longer times, false ideas cannot maintain themselves. They require effort to do so.

I and others have an 'investment' in the idea of winning and losing. The problem comes from winning rather than losing. We believe that we get something from winning but it actually takes from us. Any ideas that we tie to it become dependent on winning and in internet poker that means they are dependent on a random number generator. The more important these ideas are to us the bigger the fall we set ourselves up for.

As for solving this practically, you're right; it's a question of action. This is the issue with me at the moment. My play has become quite casual because I'm not sure of poker's role in my life right now, for reasons I won't bore you with. If I was to play longer hours in the future this issue would resolve, simply because it would become imperative to do so.

James

[Warren Whitmore]

I like

Stock market wizzards

&

Buffett & Gates on success.

PS.

there is quite a bit of good information on this subject in the Books/publications section.

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
Although you specified not poker related, The Zen of Poker deals with these issues. So does Killer Poker by Vorhaus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't read the other books you mentioned but Killer Poker by Vorhaus is absolutely TERRIBLE. I would definately NOT recommend anything from Vorhaus. I haven't got one shred of useful info from that book.