Stuff About Taking Notes

[toss]

I find myself playing without PT stats a lot. Things I try to note about other players include:

How loose they are PF
What they raise with
How loose they are postflop
Postflop aggression
Misc. Quirks

I use a lot of abbreviations and moreso after watching TStone play.

pfft: Peel flop, fold turn
pfptfr: Peel flop, peel turn, fold river
pAhf: Peel A high flop

I notice TStone using these and variations of these a lot. More useful when the action often consists of you raising and the BB calling.

I have my own system that I use for classify PF looseness:

Tght: Tight
S-Loose: Semiloose
Loose: Loose
Loooose: Very loose

I also have misc. things I like to note.

SMB: Steal my blinds: Doesn't defend blinds
DFB: Don't fold blind: Tenacious Blind Defense
Screwable: Capable of being screwplayed
Sexyable: Capable of being sexied
Donkey: Ridiculously bad plays

Theres my note taking system. Whenever I see other things that stick out I note them aswell. I'm sure this system needs improvement. Any contributions would be appreciated.

[shant]

I'm sure you do it too, but I always make a note on when I catch them pulling weird river bluffraises, or if they checkraise turn semi-bluff a lot. Also, I've made a lot of notes lately on people who defend their blinds TERRIBLY.

[thesharpie]

If I see them betting a gutshot on the flop or something like LP I'll make a note so I feel more comfortable raising mid pair against them, especially in a smaller pot.

Obviously note a turn checkraise bluffer, and note what they'll donkbet with, sometimes I can value raise every street against a gaybettor with one pair due to taking this note.

I don't bother too much with PF, I let the HUD take care of that, but if I notice something really out of line I'll note it, such as limping AK or a 5% PFR opening with JTo in MP.

Against the loose passives I note whether they peel the flop everytime, and what they call down with to see how low I can go with my value bets.

Even though I do it mostly shorthanded, the notes box usually gets cluttered for the loose players since I take so many notes and alot of them are probably unnecessary, or redundant. Anyway here is the type of stuff I note in shorthanded form, I got some of this from bisonbison's post awhile back.

donk prd rag F 2 pf-r HU nada atw - Donkbet a paired flop against preflop raiser with nothing and bets it all the way.

peel F alot - peels the flop liberally

cd ne piece - calls down with any piece, cd A hi if he'll calldown with just an ace

blff R wkns - bluffs river when shown weakness, for me it means heads up unless I specify multiway like the next one

blff T wkns EP 4 way - If the flop got checked through he bluff bet the turn first to act

can't laydown - If I'm against what appears to be a TAG, or someone with a low wenttosd% and I see a bad calldown they made, usually with a premium starting hand

CR prot prd F trps - checkraise the guy to his right, usually the preflop raiser, what would be a protection raise for a good player, on a paired flop with what was actually trips

CR bloat prd F lpp 3 way - checkraise the guy on his left, a pot building move, after getting an overcall with low pocket pair

Interested in seeing what others note, and I'll add some other things if I can think of any.

[TStoneMBD]

hi toss: im flattered.

shant: i use a system to determine how likely they are to make bluff attempts. i use "megadonkey or donkey and x2/3/4". i could probably abbreviate those terms and probably should, but they just naturally came about when i first started playing. im sure MD or D would be easier to type out when playing.

for more details go to my site and move your mouse over notetaking legend.

[flair1239]

I have had a change of heart on notes.

I used to take them religiously. Noting things that I thought were out of the ordinary for that player type.

However, after a few months of this, I realised I was not getting much value from them, compared to the time I would put into taking them. Also the act of taking them had some cost, because I would be making my note, then a table would pop up, I would have to do my action then go back to my note.

Also with the thorough detail of PAHUD these days, IMO you can get a pretty clear idea of what players are capable of within 300-400 hands or so.

Which brings up the other reason I stopped taking notes. For many of the bad players, they are not around long enough for the notes to really add value. For the players that I have several thousand hands with, I notice that their stats eventually end up supporting most notes I took on them anyway.

I do make mental notes during a session, such as "hmmm "player X" is 3-betting my blind steals a lot today... time to start capping (or time to lay-off him a bit). For the sites that I play alot with the same players (ie smaller sites) I kind of have a feel for the regulars anyway.

So I guess I just work on paying more attention, and I am suprised by the stuff that I remember about certain players when the time come to make a decision.

Without HUDs or PT, I would make notes. But (I have no shame in admitting this), I also would only play two tables.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Also the act of taking them had some cost, because I would be making my note, then a table would pop up, I would have to do my action then go back to my note.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you quantify how (or what) this "cost" you?

I take a lot of notes and need a system like this too. One thing I do is be sure to note the limit at which I've seen him play, especially if it is 6m, at the beginning of each note. Sometimes I catch people taking shots at a higher limit, or realize they were slumming it at 2/4 and were lagging it up for sport and I should take my note with the grain of salt.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also the act of taking them had some cost, because I would be making my note, then a table would pop up, I would have to do my action then go back to my note.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you quantify how (or what) this "cost" you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Concentration, and just general unsettledness. As I would have to call up the notes window again to complete my note, and this would sometimes result in distracted play.

I realise my position won't be wildy popular and some will say it is costing me money. But I really do not think so. As I said I think for most players, watching how they are playing on that particular day is more relevant.

Also as I said, the players I play with a lot, I have a pretty good idea of where they are at. With a lot of them I have a pretty good idea of what they think of me (based upon how they treat some of my plays).

I just don't think lack of manual note taking is coting me much if anything.

Although, for someone trying to reinforce/develope, their observation skills, I think it is a good exercise. I think my flirtation with manual note taking helped me solidify my observational thinking (so it was good). But at this point I don't think it is worth the effort for me.

[SlantNGo]

I agree 100%. Once I get more than 2 or 3 lines in the notes window, it's so cluttered that it's basically useless for me unless I start reading them well in advance (starting pre-flop).

I found that at live games, I didn't need specific notes on anyone. I would get a general feel for a player just by watching them, and mentally, it would provide me with a read that often allowed me to push an edge that I wouldn't normally.

I'm trying to apply this to my online game but it gets too boring when I can just surf the web at the same time.

[toss]

I jumped at the chance to see someone 4-table Party 15/30 and see if I would make the same decisions. You seem to play more aggressively as I do more often betting the flop and turn. You also reminded me that I need to bet out with mid or sometimes bottom pair against those loose calling stations. Great learning tool.

[toss]

I play a lot on sites where its impossible/impratical to use PT. I found that I do much better when I take notes as I believe theres just some things you can't grasp when you rely on PT numbers. I also tend to degenerate into autopilot mode when I use PT. I start thinking "Oh PT will do the reading for me." and head off to OoT to read about the most exspensive thing people have eaten."

I think you may be taking notes incorrectly. I don't go hunting after the smallest details but jot down things that stick out. Like villain playing 25o from UTG, donkbetting the PFR with nada, bluff check raising the turn, stuff that will eliminate any tough decisions where you'll have to guess.

[Bluffoon]

[ QUOTE ]
I have had a change of heart on notes.

I used to take them religiously. Noting things that I thought were out of the ordinary for that player type.

However, after a few months of this, I realised I was not getting much value from them, compared to the time I would put into taking them. Also the act of taking them had some cost, because I would be making my note, then a table would pop up, I would have to do my action then go back to my note.

Also with the thorough detail of PAHUD these days, IMO you can get a pretty clear idea of what players are capable of within 300-400 hands or so.

Which brings up the other reason I stopped taking notes. For many of the bad players, they are not around long enough for the notes to really add value. For the players that I have several thousand hands with, I notice that their stats eventually end up supporting most notes I took on them anyway.

I do make mental notes during a session, such as "hmmm "player X" is 3-betting my blind steals a lot today... time to start capping (or time to lay-off him a bit). For the sites that I play alot with the same players (ie smaller sites) I kind of have a feel for the regulars anyway.

So I guess I just work on paying more attention, and I am suprised by the stuff that I remember about certain players when the time come to make a decision.

Without HUDs or PT, I would make notes. But (I have no shame in admitting this), I also would only play two tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this to some extent, especially the part about wasting time taking notes on bad players who you probably will never see again. I try to spend my time taking more notes on good players and players I see frequently although like flair if I play with someone too much then I again don't bother with the notes because I know what they do without them.

[flair1239]

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I think you may be taking notes incorrectly. I don't go hunting after the smallest details but jot down things that stick out. Like villain playing 25o from UTG, donkbetting the PFR with nada, bluff check raising the turn, stuff that will eliminate any tough decisions where you'll have to guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you are saying.

BUt I was essentially looking for many of the same things you are.

My point is that my HUD stats bare much of this out, If you know what kind of stats combinations too look for. As far as observed sample size goes, manual notes are subject to this same limitation.

I am in a greement with you that if I played a non pt site, or did not use PT, I would do things differently. I just believe that a multitude of factors (HUDs, time, interpretation, over weighting noted areas in your decision making...etc) lead me to the conclusion that my lack of note taking is neutral EV at worse.

[TStoneMBD]

if youre taking notes like "folds BB to steal" this is often just a waste of time. poker tracker stats will tell you what his fbbs% is, so noting that he folded once probably wont do you any good. pokertracker doesnt tell you what the opponent is capable of postflop, like is he capable of checkraise semibluffing? pokertracker wont tell you that and if you see him do it you better note it.

[TheHammer24]

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if youre taking notes like "folds BB to steal" this is often just a waste of time. poker tracker stats will tell you what his fbbs% is, so noting that he folded once probably wont do you any good. pokertracker doesnt tell you what the opponent is capable of postflop, like is he capable of checkraise semibluffing? pokertracker wont tell you that and if you see him do it you better note it.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 2/4 and 3/6 I don't take as many notes as I should, but I find when I do it's generally about things like wierd bluffs. Overagressions with marginal hands. And when players will literally call down with anypair.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
if youre taking notes like "folds BB to steal" this is often just a waste of time. poker tracker stats will tell you what his fbbs% is, so noting that he folded once probably wont do you any good. pokertracker doesnt tell you what the opponent is capable of postflop, like is he capable of checkraise semibluffing? pokertracker wont tell you that and if you see him do it you better note it.

[/ QUOTE ]

WSD when raise turn, in combination with turn aggressiveness, taking into consideration folding frequency to turn bets.

Also for the players that I play with frequently enough for this to matter to my intermediate term EV... I do remember.

I am not saying that noticing this stuff is unimportant. And for some people, maybe the noting this stuff helps. This is not a position I have adopted because I am lazy, or because I think this stuff is unimportant.

I am merely saying that between the HUD, the things I notice and retain anyway, and just being on top of the general game texture; I don't feel the actual process of physically taking the note matters that much to me.

Probably an individual thing. But I felt it was relevant to the thread.

[Guruman]

I have been trying to use my notes to get a better feel to my opponents default plays on the flop and river so that I can make those decisions easier.

The two things that I want to have a clear grip on with everone I play against are
1)how do they play the a totally whiffed flop vs multiple opponents?
examples:
autobet flp when chkd to
cont bet w ovrs
chkd thru md pr
raised fl drw

presto. Now I know whether or not to checkraise my tpnk or just lead out (or checkfold)

then I want to know how to play the river.
examples:
bluff donk w nothing
bluff raise river
chkd thru top pr [or better] (some players are incapable of this)

these reads are important for me in determining how often to check/call, check/raise, or just bet out with something like tpnk or mid pr.

If i have one flop and one river note on most of my opponents, then many of my decisions become much easier.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
autobet flp when chkd to
cont bet w ovrs
chkd thru md pr
raised fl drw


[/ QUOTE ]

I like your ideas. I'm going to add this to my arsenal.