$.25/.50 Did I have the odds to call straight draw?

[Benoit]

I called the raise preflop since I was last to act and getting 9 to 1 by calling.

On the flop I was ready to fold because of the bet and raise because I knew most likely UTG+1 was going to re-raise after my call, so I was actually calling at least 3 bets. But by the time it got to me the pot was so large that I was spending the eventual 3 bets to win the total pot this round of at least 17 bets (after UTG+1's 3 bet and the other two fold). And I had the feeling that MP1 was only going to call rather then fold or 4 bet it).

The 3 to the flush on the river scared me, but I had no info to say someone hit, so I just bet with the intention of calling a raise.

So what do you guys think, was I too loose in my calls?


PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, SB folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls $0.25 (All-In).

River: (18.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

[numeri]

Preflop is a bit loose.

1. On the flop, how many outs do you have?
2. What odds do you need from the pot?
3. What are your immediate odds offered by the pot?
4. If you knew UTG+1 would 3-bet and MP1 and MP2 would call, what odds would the pot be offering you then the first time around?

You need to be able to answer these questions quickly. With practice, you will.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is a bit loose.

1. On the flop, how many outs do you have?
2. What odds do you need from the pot?
3. What are your immediate odds offered by the pot?
4. If you knew UTG+1 would 3-bet and MP1 and MP2 would call, what odds would the pot be offering you then the first time around?

You need to be able to answer these questions quickly. With practice, you will.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I know those things already, I had it figured out as the hand was playing out.

I know I'm sometimes too loose and aggressive sometimes, but how is calling a 2 bet wrong from the BB when my call closed the action?

edit: I knew with the eventual 3 bet call on the flop I was getting at least 4 to 1 on my money. Probably over 5 to 1 if you include implied odds since this table was very loose. I figured that would be good enough since I had an open ended straight draw.

If the turn is a /images/graemlins/heart.gif that's not the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif , what's your plan?

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
If the turn is a /images/graemlins/heart.gif that's not the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif or 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif , what's your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't see why this matters.

to the op - nice hand

[Augster]

The only thing I'd have done differently is I'd have 3-bet the flop.

Preflop, it's 9:1 to you with "absolute position", a little loose, but I'll make that call too.

OESD with a rainbow flop and callers and raisers? I'm pushing my draw on the flop.

Turn C/R is great.

Great bet on the end. If they sucked out a backdoor flush draw with that much action, so be it.

The only thing I'd have been scared of was the board pairing. It didn't. If it had on the end, I'd have probably checked/called.

NH.

[Rev. Good Will]

PF still iffy 9:1

other than that, ni han

[Benoit]

cool okay thanks guys.

But so what's with a few people saying my PF call was loose? I could have sworn heads up calling a two bet in the BB is 3 to 1 and at least even money if the raiser has a wide enough range of hands to raise with. So with 4 players already calling and me closing the action by calling 1 bet for 9 in the pot, how is that loose? Sorry maybe I didn't make it clear that this table was loose, so a raise does not mean a large pocket pair, it could also be Ax or Kx.

Here are the results:
Hero has 7s 9d (straight, jack high).
UTG+1 has Tc Ac (one pair, tens).
MP2 has Qh Ks (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 20.50 BB.

[stuartharris]

I think your preflop call is fine.

I'd have been even more aggressive on the flop. Against four people, I'm opening the betting. And with two people already calling the three-bet, I'm capping. With my OESD and this many opponents, I want to see as much money as possible in the pot, and there's not even a flush draw yet on the flop.

[POKhER]

Fold preflop, Cap the flop.
rest is standard.

[ltb]

cap the flop when? you want him to check/call 2 cold and then cap when it's 3-bet?

even if so, how is it standard to go for a check/raise on the turn if, according to you, he's capping the flop?

[bozlax]

Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with 9 to 1 pot odds, don't I just need a 10% or better chance to win to make this a good call? Sorry I haven't looked but I would imagine that with 5 players, even if one player had AA and the others had combinations of things like Ax and QJ, that I would still have at least a 10% chance plus added implied odds for if I hit against the loose callers.

I'm actually not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just curious about calling a 2 bet from the BB in other situations as well as I normally call them. Like if I'm heads up with the SB who two bet PF, I will normally call because even if I am behind I'm getting 3 to 1 on my money, so I just need a 25% chance to win to break even.

Have I been going at this the wrong way? Seriously, please enlighten me.

Yeah preflop is fairly debatable, i lean slightly towards the call at a table this loose postflop. in game i probly fold it though.

Flop you shouldnt think your just chasing, think in terms of equity. You have way more than 20% here so pump the pot as much as possible. Bet, 3 bet, cap.

When you take the initiative on the flop the rest of the hand plays differently.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with 9 to 1 pot odds, don't I just need a 10% or better chance to win to make this a good call? Sorry I haven't looked but I would imagine that with 5 players, even if one player had AA and the others had combinations of things like Ax and QJ, that I would still have at least a 10% chance plus added implied odds for if I hit against the loose callers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You make a good point about your equity. Against AA and 3 random hands, 97o has 12% equity. The problem with that calculation is it assumes you're going to the river regardless. Are you really continuing on a K62 flop just to hit running T 8? Of course not. What do you do on the flop if it's 9-high? What implied odds do you have then?

Playing 97o vs. a preflop raise puts you in all types of tricky situations - especially multiway. I don't think anyone here is trying to say it's a horrible call that no one should ever make. It's just a bit loose.

[Benoit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even at a loose table, a UTG or UTG+1 raise indicates a certain level of hand strength. Not to mention that the fact that the TABLE is loose doesn't tell us anything about the RAISER (lots of TAGs play at loose tables). So, even at 9:1, in the absence of other information, playing an offsuited one-gapper with no high-card value is a touch loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with 9 to 1 pot odds, don't I just need a 10% or better chance to win to make this a good call? Sorry I haven't looked but I would imagine that with 5 players, even if one player had AA and the others had combinations of things like Ax and QJ, that I would still have at least a 10% chance plus added implied odds for if I hit against the loose callers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You make a good point about your equity. Against AA and 3 random hands, 97o has 12% equity. The problem with that calculation is it assumes you're going to the river regardless. Are you really continuing on a K62 flop just to hit running T 8? Of course not. What do you do on the flop if it's 9-high? What implied odds do you have then?

Playing 97o vs. a preflop raise puts you in all types of tricky situations - especially multiway. I don't think anyone here is trying to say it's a horrible call that no one should ever make. It's just a bit loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you're probably right when I think about it in that case. With trips 9s I might not want to push it too much since one of the callers might have had a 9 with a better kicker, etc. So in the end those implied odds suck if the only thing I can hit is a straight or better before I push it.