Extracting Value with Top Set [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Extracting Value with Top Set

quarkncover

10-21-2005, 10:26 PM

60 hands with MP2 LAG 35.59/11.86/2.17

I had a hard time OOP here, against a LAG there is probably a better line to get all the chips in. Action on Turn? River and Results to Come. Hard time putting villain on hand here too 54-A5?? AJ-AK?? JJ-KK??/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($8.35)
BB ($31.55)
UTG ($24.75)
Hero ($28.05)
MP1 ($6.40)
MP2 ($38.30)
CO ($29.85)
Button ($14.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $1.75, 4 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.10) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.75, MP2 raises to $5.5, Hero calls $3.75.

Turn: ($15.10) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $4.5, Hero ??

Hoopster81

10-21-2005, 10:30 PM

You gotta just call that turn now. Next time bet $4 on the flop, and if he raises you get it all-in.

10-21-2005, 10:33 PM

As soon as that ace hits, I check call it down...straight and flush draws on the board, and he's betting in to you...reraise the flop

TrailofTears

10-21-2005, 10:36 PM

Bet more on the flop. Then you can decide to 3-bet or CR turn, depending on what you prefer. I like a 3-bet since a lot of cards will come on the turn that are scare cards (more for him than for you).

-T

quarkncover

10-21-2005, 10:38 PM

Villain Raised to 7x BB preflop, even though there are straight and flush draws present the only hand that would really worry me would be KQh or KJh, only hand I have seen villain raise this big preflop was shown down he had AQo and turned nut straight. Check-calling seems way too weak tight, if I call on turn what is my river play? C/C again??!!! Correct me if I'm wrong but I think a value/blocking bet is in line.

quarkncover

10-21-2005, 10:40 PM

I like your line T, are you suggesting leading for a PSB on flop and maybe 1/2 pot or more on turn?

Isura

10-21-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
60 hands with MP2 LAG 35.59/11.86/2.17

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not lag. You guys need to start understanding how to use these stats effectively.

quarkncover

10-21-2005, 10:44 PM

Thx for the post Isura, I am just using some autorate rules I found in the forum, this is something I am definitely going to look into.

TrailofTears

10-21-2005, 10:46 PM

Definitely at least 4 on the flop, maybe even an overbet (if I know villain is maniacal, as they tend to find that insulting). *Put yourself in villains place - You make a strong raise PF, board comes raggedy anne, and someone bets into you. Most players will raise this bet, as it could be made with so many hands, but you will certainly get a raise out of any overpair.*

Back to the real hand - Make a 3-bet that commits both you and villain to the hand. Hand over. No worrying about scare cards on the turn. No worrying about how to get your money in the rest of the way. Make the hand play out simply for you.

-T

TrailofTears

10-21-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60 hands with MP2 LAG 35.59/11.86/2.17

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not lag. You guys need to start understanding how to use these stats effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty laggy for full table.

Isura

10-21-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thx for the post Isura, I am just using some autorate rules I found in the forum, this is something I am definitely look into.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't use autorate type rules in no-limit. For example, Player A and B can both have 30/10/2 stats but play totally different styles. Player A could attain those stats by minraising a lot, raising without consideration of position, and betting small/weak postflop (e.g. making dark tunnel bets). Player A could be a habitual slowplayer, but at the same time love to bluff in obvious spots. Player B may actually make normal preflop raises and reraises, consider position (e.g. makes isolation raises), bet his good hands, and check/folds his weak hands, and rarely check/raises. B could be completely predictable and be easier to play against than A.

The VP/PFR stats can be useful to get a feel for the range of hands villain could be playing, but they are not helpful for much else.

quarkncover

10-21-2005, 10:55 PM

Here are the results of the hand, I c/c turn and decided to block/value bet river, is there a better amount to bet here?
Still curious as to what y'all might put villain on, I really have no clue.

Thanks for the posts guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($8.35)
BB ($31.55)
UTG ($24.75)
Hero ($28.05)
MP1 ($6.40)
MP2 ($38.30)
CO ($29.85)
Button ($14.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $1.75, 4 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.10) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.75, MP2 raises to $5.5, Hero calls $3.75.

Turn: ($15.10) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $4.5, Hero calls $4.50.

River: ($24.10) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $31.10

Isura

10-21-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60 hands with MP2 LAG 35.59/11.86/2.17

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not lag. You guys need to start understanding how to use these stats effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty laggy for full table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I initially thought the hand was from 6-max. Nevertheless, 11% is more moderately aggressive and slightly loose PREFLOP. It tells us very little about how villain will play after the flop.

TrailofTears

10-21-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60 hands with MP2 LAG 35.59/11.86/2.17

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not lag. You guys need to start understanding how to use these stats effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty laggy for full table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I initially thought the hand was from 6-max. Nevertheless, 11% is more moderately aggressive and slightly loose PREFLOP. It tells us very little about how villain will play after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I understand that/agree. And I had to double check to see it was 8-handed, since I only play 6-max myself. I was just saying that his VPIP is pretty loose for a full table. His PFR% is not very aggressive, though. And 2.17 for his AF is also pretty standard, but sometimes I get confused since I am an aggro 6m'er.

xorbie

10-22-2005, 12:36 AM

Bet $3 on the flop, then raise all in when he raises.

orange

10-22-2005, 12:37 AM

Bet at least $12 on the river. That weak ass bet begs to be raised.

meleader2

10-22-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet more on the flop. Then you can decide to 3-bet or CR turn, depending on what you prefer. I like a 3-bet since a lot of cards will come on the turn that are scare cards (more for him than for you).

-T

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't even bet the flop he just called. pot that flop, inflate the pot. if the heart hits c/c it to the river if fill up wake up!

arod15

10-22-2005, 02:00 AM

I call here. Gamble a bit hoping a fourth heart doesnt fall. I dont like raising as you could be drawing slim. I call and see what the river brings.

TrailofTears

10-22-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet more on the flop. Then you can decide to 3-bet or CR turn, depending on what you prefer. I like a 3-bet since a lot of cards will come on the turn that are scare cards (more for him than for you).

-T

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't even bet the flop he just called. pot that flop, inflate the pot. if the heart hits c/c it to the river if fill up wake up!

[/ QUOTE ]

He did bet the flop, but only about 1/3 pot. Reread the hand. This is where he messed it up, IMO.

-T