Overlimping AA for deception?

[stoxtrader]

Is it a good idea? Discuss.

[MaxPower]

Only for you.

[JAA]

I personally wouldn't do it, although I have thought about it theoretically many times (clearly you are as well). I just think you give up too much equity preflop with AA by not getting as much money in as you can. The only time I do not put in every last raise with AA preflop is when I have open raised, been 3 bet, and will now be heads up with the 3 bettor. In this case, many times I just call. It seems like it's isn't very hard to make the 1SB (and sometimes much more) up postflop.

I don't like the prospect of overlimping with AA in a multiway pot, and having it so that I could show my opponents my hand on the flop and they would still be correct to draw at their 2 pair/gutshot, blah blah blah.

Maybe some heated discussion in this thread will change my mind.

- Jags

edit:can't spell

[elindauer]

Limping aces is a play for an aggressive game where you are fairly sure you are going to be raised. Overlimping is risky in that after a few limpers, players start limping in with small pairs and suited connectors and crap that you really aren't all that excited about having around.

On the other hand, you have aces and your preflop limp is very deceptive. I'd save it for the most laggy games, but think it's a viable play.

my 2 cents.
eric

last night live 20/40, hijack/CO/btn are all a big mix of crazy/random preflop

utg nit limps, I limp after him with red aces, folded to hijack who limps, co limps, button folds, sb completes.

Flop 7 8 T rainbow, I bet, all call. Turn A, I bet, hijack raises, I 3-bet, hijack 4-bets, I call down, he had J9o.

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping aces is a play for an aggressive game where you are fairly sure you are going to be raised. Overlimping is risky in that after a few limpers, players start limping in with small pairs and suited connectors and crap that you really aren't all that excited about having around.

On the other hand, you have aces and your preflop limp is very deceptive. I'd save it for the most laggy games, but think it's a viable play.

my 2 cents.
eric

[/ QUOTE ]

You bring up a good point that I didn't mention in my post: Say 2 people limp and you come along for 1 bet as well...The dudes with 22 and T9s in the cutoff and on the button are correct to come along. Bleh. Add that to the flop scenario I mentioned in my post, and it seems like you are preventing your opponents from making mistakes by just limping.

But...sometimes you will get bet into on the flop, be able to raise and thin the field, and get the pot heads up or 3 handed without your opponents knowing how strong you really are. This situation is nice, and could be an argument for overlimping (in addition to the obvious times you wil be able to limp-reraise preflop)

- Jags

[JAA]

Was this hand at Foxwoods by any chance? I saw the same thing happen there yesterday...

- Jags

If you like seeing your aces beat by some cheese that BB holds then go ahead. Personally this kind of thing is likely to put me on tilt so I raise everytime.

Just raise dont worry about deception its overrated.

[ QUOTE ]
Was this hand at Foxwoods by any chance?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Brantford.

[ QUOTE ]
Just raise dont worry about deception its overrated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this applies to OP, just a guess.

[Klepton]

just the idea of seeing stoxtrader overlimp after the obvious fish at the table limped would cause every alarm in my head to go off

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a good idea? Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the only time it is correct to overlimp with aces is when you are pretty sure it will be raised behind you, and then you can 3 bet. Sure you may let in some pocket pairs and suited connectors and other hands in this process which means you will lose more often, but deploying this strategy should win more money in the long run and thats all that matters. If the above conditions were not meant I would never overlimp with Aces, the deception is too costly in my opinion.

[gonores]

This is your best and most thought-provoking post ever.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
This is your best and most thought-provoking post ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, do you have any provoked thoughts to share on the matter concerning the actualy query?
Or were you being sarcastic?

edit: OK, it's gotta be sarcasm. If anyone other than Stox had made the original post, there'd be no confusion.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a good idea? Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are looking for deception I would prefer adding a few more raising hands in stead. And I agree with Klepton: You overlimping would make me very suspicious.

[Kevin J]

With AA I tend to make whatever play will yield the biggest pot. If overlimping is it, fine, but I think that's very rare.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a good idea? Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ].

you have to weight the benefits w/ the costs. just a statement of the obvious.

Benefits:

- your hand is unknown. at high limits it will certainly throw your opponents off a GREAT deal and may greatly affect their play against you in the future.

- if flop comes T High w/ a flush draw and QTs or the like is out there you stand to win a nice pot and have him putting in much more money than he would had you raised and gave him the idea you have a big pair before the flop comes out.

- people will be less likely to raise if you overlimp b/c the play will stick in their head.

NOTE that two of these make overlimping in low limits very bad.

COSTS:

- since you didn't "define" your hand pf, you stand to be in some unfamiliar situations vs. the blinds and/or other limpers on otherwise seemingly innocuous flops.

- you lost ALL the pf equity gained from that additional bet should nobody raise behind you (x% of the time). this is an immediately, directly measurable and observable hit to your EV

- you give drawing hands vs. you the exact implied odds they need to be played profitably. this becomes more and more costly the higher the limit where agressive play could easily cost you more than it would otherwise if a limper hits a hand you couldn't easily read.

so that is the basic outline.

i think overall its a bad idea (0verall= on average). however, it MAY be correct vs. people who play well, who you play with all the time, who constantly raise overlimpers, who overplay their hands in limped pots etc...

interesting thought stox, but i think its still a raise.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
just the idea of seeing stoxtrader overlimp after the obvious fish at the table limped would cause every alarm in my head to go off

[/ QUOTE ]

where in the OP do you see that?

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is your best and most thought-provoking post ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, do you have any provoked thoughts to share on the matter concerning the actualy query?
Or were you being sarcastic?

edit: OK, it's gotta be sarcasm. If anyone other than Stox had made the original post, there'd be no confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

anybody else doesn't play against a strong overall player pool in high limit games.

Barron

Bottom line, you can play it either way, and your choice should be largely dependent upon game conditions. However, that being said, you're never wrong to raise re-raise and cap PF with AA.

But deception has value too.


I think there's a time and a place for both plays.

[bugstud]

only if I am intending to limpreraise, and it has to be a pretty nutty aggro game.

[The Truth]

I think we should identify who the opening limper is before we make our decision.


blake

[stoxtrader]

In other news - I got permission to play the stars 1/2 game, and got to chat with lee jones, which was great. The games stink though.

I've read every post over the past few days, but have been itching to write something.

I guess this was just a bad joke (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=373972 5&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=3735848&Search=true&where=&Name=4794&daterang e=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post3739725)

Where's our mod?

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Was this hand at Foxwoods by any chance?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Brantford.

[/ QUOTE ]

i almost choked reading this. you overlimped AA at brantford? those games are action games. no need, no need at all to EVER play any hand for deception in a game like brantford

i think overlimping AA probably has its place. you gain a ton of deception. maybe in the type of players who are willing to go really laggy with you in small pots, but are good hand readers. you def, def do not want to overlimp AA in a game that's 4-5 way for 3bets preflop, and you get tons of action on any hand (see brantford).

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
In other news - I got permission to play the stars 1/2 game, and got to chat with lee jones, which was great. The games stink though.

I've read every post over the past few days, but have been itching to write something.

I guess this was just a bad joke (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=373972 5&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=3735848&Search=true&where=&Name=4794&daterang e=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post3739725)

Where's our mod?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahah I had already read that thread too, and I still couldn't make the connection. I would wager that had someone with 1 post and the handle "WPTRounder69" had posted the question, a flurry of hate and degradation would have ensued.

So, I guess that's a compliment to you and your rep around here that everyone took it seriously.

nh - Jags

[bicyclekick]

Yeah, I'm completely shocked nobody else got the referance...especially barron. I was giggling as I scrolled through his 18 page serious response to your question.

Haha. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Pog0]

Off topic and completely irrelivant, but yeah... slowplaying aces...

2/4 9 handed

Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

PRE-FLOP
UTG+1 calls, (6 folds), Hero checks.

FLOP (2 players) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 SB)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

TURN (2 players) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (1 BB)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

RIVER (2 players) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (1 BB)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

SHOWDOWN
UTG+1 shows A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero shows 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
In other news - I got permission to play the stars 1/2 game, and got to chat with lee jones, which was great. The games stink though.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think more often than not you couldnt find a worse game in a casino or anywhere on the net even if you tried. Like Hiatus once said, "Stars is worse than crack."

Cause the game is exactly the same every single day.. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Where's our mod?

[/ QUOTE ]
You rang?

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
In other news - I got permission to play the stars 1/2 game, and got to chat with lee jones, which was great. The games stink though.

I've read every post over the past few days, but have been itching to write something.

I guess this was just a bad joke (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=373972 5&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=3735848&Search=true&where=&Name=4794&daterang e=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post3739725)

Where's our mod?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, i think this was [censored] brilliant.

[Ezcheeze]

In games filled with some good and decent thinking players, yes it's better to do it sometimes than not as long as you limp sometimes with other not so good hands. Against crack addicts however it's just a waste.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm completely shocked nobody else got the referance...especially barron. I was giggling as I scrolled through his 18 page serious response to your question.

Haha. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yea he mentioned that on im....i responded saying i kinda felt one of thoses costs was just too big to give up...

well we always knew i was naive (Read: idiotic)

Barron

[jediael]

I prefer open-folding AA for deception /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer open-folding AA for deception /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]