Brilliant or FPS?

[Ghazban]

Villain is one of those crazy LAGtastic swedes. Last orbit, I openraised from the SB, he called, I check/raised a TT5r flop (he took a long time to call that), the 7 turn was checked through and I check/folded an ace on the river. He's a regular in the game and probably sees me as a bit tight but occasionally wildly aggressive with nothing. He definitely prefers betting and raising to calling on all streets.

Party Poker (skins) No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($413.85)
Button ($156.05)
Hero ($200)
BB ($403)
UTG ($0)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $6</font>, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($12) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, BB calls $10.

Turn: ($32) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: ($32) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $50</font>, BB calls $40.

Final Pot: $132

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Jd Js (full house, jacks full of fives).
BB has Ks Th (two pair, tens and fives).
UTG doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins $132. </font>

[TrailofTears]

I think you can get more money in faster by not playing it like this.

-T

[Ghazban]

Given that he had a ten, sure, but his flop call in no way indicates that is the case.

[Bukem_]

I like $25 on the turn.

I burned a ton on money the other day when I checked a turn with similar action.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
Given that he had a ten, sure, but his flop call in no way indicates that is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't read the results. Regardless, what hand is calling on a dry flop like that, but folding to a bet because of a J on the turn. If anything, TJ is the most likely hand he could have (obviously not as much since you have JJ - I'm aware), but I don't think this card will scare him out of a call. If it does, then how do you figure your CR on the river would have gotten more out of him?

-T

[savman]

i like it. given his perception of you and prior history his flop calling range includes MANY relatively weak holdings and if u are not regularly loading it up on all three streets then your line is fine, especially if he is a winning player in the game. against a LAG donk no FPS, just shovel money in the pot.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
I like $25 on the turn.



[/ QUOTE ]

[Ghazban]

The checkraise doesn't necessarily get any more out of him but it does give him a chance to bluff. With a weaker hand, I would certainly check/call but this holding is strong enough that I might even get a call from a worse hand if I check/raise.

As for hands that call flop, check turn, and bet river, I'd say a whole lot of pocket pairs fit that description. However, I don't think a small pair calls both the flop and turn if I fire again.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
this holding is strong enough that I might even get a call from a worse hand if I check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. Please explain.

And I can accept that some PP's will drop to a turn bet, but I think that would be more likely if the turn is an A or K. I guess I just don't like the river CR. Why not lead the river? I think you will get a call from the same hands that would make the bluff, but you might get more out of them, since I think most players fold to the river CR.

I think raise PF, bet flop, check turn, bet river looks more like AK.

-T

[Go_Blue88]

I'm not sure what FPS means, but I like your line. However, I prefer leading the turn as if you c/c lead the river, that would show too much strength. If you c/r the turn, that also screams strength.

I like leading the turn and betting half the pot on the river hoping that Villian will make a play on me.

[stu-unger]

i think that it gets the most value out of weak 10s and small pocket pairs...

what is your plan if he 1/2-full pots the turn? wont it look a little funny if u c/c the turn and show a willingness to get chips in on the river?

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this holding is strong enough that I might even get a call from a worse hand if I check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. Please explain.

And I can accept that some PP's will drop to a turn bet, but I think that would be more likely if the turn is an A or K. I guess I just don't like the river CR. Why not lead the river? I think you will get a call from the same hands that would make the bluff, but you might get more out of them, since I think most players fold to the river CR.

I think raise PF, bet flop, check turn, bet river looks more like AK.

-T

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with you here. I think Hero's c/r on the river is really smart given the check on the turn. It causes Villian to think his hand is good.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this holding is strong enough that I might even get a call from a worse hand if I check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. Please explain.

And I can accept that some PP's will drop to a turn bet, but I think that would be more likely if the turn is an A or K. I guess I just don't like the river CR. Why not lead the river? I think you will get a call from the same hands that would make the bluff, but you might get more out of them, since I think most players fold to the river CR.

I think raise PF, bet flop, check turn, bet river looks more like AK.

-T

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with you here. I think Hero's c/r on the river is really smart given the check on the turn. It causes Villian to think his hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the wisest of words (Ron Burgandy) - "Agree to disagree."

But I will point to a wise piece of advice from fim a ways back - Value betting the river (here from villain's piont of view) is a great thing. For one, people almost never CR bluff on the river.

This makes it an easy laydown for villain, IMO, whereas I think a bet of 25 from hero makes villain queezy but suspicious, resulting in a crying call.

-T

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree with you here. I think Hero's c/r on the river is really smart given the check on the turn. It causes Villian to think his hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

A smart villian "value checks" the river. Hero was fortunate villian bet, more fortunate that villian called the c/r. He should have only gotten the $10 river bet (or $0) with this line. With a lead turn, lead river line he'd get around $50 (which is what he got anyway, but the risk was there to get alot less). I vote FPS.

[scrapperdog]

FPS Checking the best hand twice and praying that the other guy puts money in is not the way to build a pot.

It worked out for you this time but this was an easy fold IMO to a large reraise like that so really you should have only made 10 bucks by checking the best hand twice. He called 10 bucks on the flop, there is no reason to think he wont call other bets that are not out of line. I will be surprised if this gets 1 brilliant vote.