When is Automatic not

[TakenItEasy]

8 player home game.
Blinds/Ante: $10/$20/$2, top 3 pay, 4 players left.

My recall may be off a little but the stacks were something like this before the blinds:

UTG: ~450
CO: ~140
Hero: ~160
BB: ~50

2 folds to hero W64o. I limp in hoping to stop-n-go. I don't think there is any FE BTF.

BB pushes. I put his range to be average+ and figure I'm pot odds correct to call but can I afford the extra $28 and double up the shortstack.

[tigerite]

You should have just pushed, I'm like 99% positive there is no range he can call with to stop you profiting on it.

[bawcerelli]

when i have a crappy hand with no fold equity against a small stack i prefer to just muck, especially since calling his push is a considerable chunk of your stack.

[TakenItEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
when i have a crappy hand with no fold equity against a small stack i prefer to just muck, especially since calling his push is a considerable chunk of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Muck before the limp or after?

[Exitonly]

just put him in, but you gotta call after limping, it's 30 to win 70, and he could have any two cards.

[bawcerelli]

before the limp. if you limp, he's pretty much gonna go all in every time. if you push he pretty much will be calling with anything. i just don't like unnecessarily giving the short stack chips when we need them ourselves. besides it'll help your table image a bit. not much but a bit.

[tigerite]

Sorry but curtains once had a go at me for folding in a situation like this, for fear of "giving the short stack life", and he was bang on. You cannot fold here if you like money. Sorry to be blunt again, but it really is that simple.

I could only envisage folding here if you were the big stack, or 2nd big stack and big stack was being extremely passive, in order to keep shorty alive.

[TakenItEasy]

I actually gave him a 50% chance to check the option and about a 50% chance to get him to lay down on a missed flop. I saw that he had some basic skills but he had some holes in some of his plays that should have been automatic. He later confirmed that he would have checked a below average hand.

That being said I was kicking myself about not mucking in the first place after the push.

I called, lost, and ended up in a 3 way race for bottom money.

[TakenItEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but curtains once had a go at me for folding in a situation like this, for fear of "giving the short stack life", and he was bang on. You cannot fold here if you like money. Sorry to be blunt again, but it really is that simple.

I could only envisage folding here if you were the big stack, or 2nd big stack and big stack was being extremely passive, in order to keep shorty alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I would agree with you but in this EXACT situation, I think there is extra incentive to fold here. The fact that there are 3 short stacks played a part in my thinking. A muck would have kept me in 2nd place by a small margin while a push is 70% likely to put me in 4th by a small margin. While the pot odds demanded play, the relative positions could be an overriding factor.

I still think the Stop-n-Go was worth a shot (against this particular player) but I prefer a muck over a push here.

[bawcerelli]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but curtains once had a go at me for folding in a situation like this, for fear of "giving the short stack life", and he was bang on. You cannot fold here if you like money. Sorry to be blunt again, but it really is that simple.

I could only envisage folding here if you were the big stack, or 2nd big stack and big stack was being extremely passive, in order to keep shorty alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not so much giving the shorty life, as it is taking away chips out of your own stack that i don't like. then again, i play weak tight.

[TakenItEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but curtains once had a go at me for folding in a situation like this, for fear of "giving the short stack life", and he was bang on. You cannot fold here if you like money. Sorry to be blunt again, but it really is that simple.

I could only envisage folding here if you were the big stack, or 2nd big stack and big stack was being extremely passive, in order to keep shorty alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not so much giving the shorty life, as it is taking away chips out of your own stack that i don't like. then again, i play weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I would agree with you that if I din't have a read on villian that he would just call a below average hand. I should have made that more clear rather than just saying that I put villain on an above average hand with the push. As I already meantioned he confirmend that he could have checked if he didn't have anything. I think He had a suited K.

With the read I figured if he checked than a push on the flop would actually enable him to lay down small cards on a missed flop.

After the failed stop-n-go I called because of the increased pot odds, although I am still on the wall with that one. A fold at that point still keeps me tied for 2nd and with an above average hand I am now better than 70% to end up with the lowest stack.

However, if it were not for the third short stack, I would agree with tigerite and Exitonly to just push BTF since it would be too negative EV and the chip position component would not be there.