Live $2/$5 Non-Standard Set Line

[Big_Jim]

Real Juicy $2/$5 NL game at the MGM a few months back.

Game is playing pretty loosy goosy with 4-6 to the flop most hands with people calling big raises PF with crap.

Villian in this hand is the only player at the table who seems to be playing well, but seems to be too tight PF, he has about $1000 behind, I cover.

Villian seems to respect my play, but has seen me making a few moves. I have shown a few big bluffs (including a big one on villian when the flush hit on the turn, he said he folded two pair) to continue to get action from the awful players, and have been playing very aggressively. I have fast played every big hand that I have shown down.

UTG limps, a few more limpers, I limp in CO with red 88. Button (villian) raises to $50 straight. BB calls, UTG calls, two more callers.

Villian and I have been chatting it up throughout the game, he looks at me and says "pot odds?" I nod and call.

His big raise PF after this many limpers narrows down his hand range a lot. I been playing with him for a few hours and have only seen him do this with big pairs (JJ+) and AK.

6 to the flop. Avg stack size of the donks is ~$400-$600

Flop: (~$310) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checks to me, I check. Villian checks ?

Turn:(~$310) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Checks to me again (very unusual).
I look to my left and villian is ready to make a bet, I check again.
Villian bets $250. Folds to me?!?
I look at villian for a few moments and raise all in.

Thoughts? I'll explain my reasoning after a few posts.

Edit: Fixed pot size on flop.

[DeadMoneyOC]

Total madness. Bet the flop, bet the turn, do something! If you are sure he has AK and you are pretty sure he will call because he thinks you are FOS then I guess this is ok, but why not bet the turn if you think the villian likes his hand?

[bobby rooney]

I really hate the flop check, I mean I really HATE it. You should definitely bet the flop in my opinion. If the Preflop raiser has a big pair, you want to get all of his chips. Since the pot is big, he can't really fold his overpair here and is likely to raise you. Checking wouldn't be so bad except that if he has AK, you've just given free cards to a bunch of donks that play any two sOOted. Hell, if the game is really that loose, you might bet your set, get raised by Villain and get another call by a flush draw and end up tripling up on the hand. There are times to slowplay sets, but loose multiway action you gotta bet that.

[tom441lbk]

checked through on flop, but turn pot is bigger /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I like this if you have been known to fastplay, i might just call and try to checkraise on the river, but i love to river checkraise people(donkeys), so this may not work with a smarter player, or if he checks behind

It seems to look like you're trying to convince villain through you maniac actions that you are bluffing, and trying to induce a call that way, since you have been fastplaying all strong hands

Another line looks to ck/raise him on turn, then lead river

[Big_Jim]

Allright.. well, I'm not getting much feedback on this one, so I'll say my thought process.

PF: Pretty standard. Sometimes I might raise. When villian raises, he has a very narrow hand range. I'm not even 100% sure he would raise AKo here.

Flop: Alright.. now leading here is obviously the standard play, but I checked for a few reasons.
Villian is very likely (I would say 80% or so) to have a big pair here, and he will bet it 100% of the time, if he does.

When villian fires out his bet (which would be somewhere between 200-300) it is very likely that he picks up 2-3 callers who will call with any piece of the board or any kind of draw. I am not so sure that these players will make these calls if there is a bet and a raise to them, although the draws still come.

Once he gets a few callers, I plan on check/raising the field. While this is obviously a very strong play, and may get people to lay down, no draws are going anywhere, and I don't think that the donks can fold getting the massive pot odds they're being offered if they think they have any kind of chance to win the pot. Thus, I feel that there is a good chance I can stack 2 or more of the donks.

Obviously, I risk a free card here, but I think that it is a very rare situation.

Turn: When villian checked behind, I was 95% sure that he had AK, and that he had now hit top pair. When it checked to me, and I saw him ready to fire, I figured that this was a great opportunity. Again... it is very likely that 1 or more of the donks calls this bet (and yes, they will still call with any draw, here), and my logic behind my flop check again applies.

If it folds to me (which I figured had about a 25% chance of happening) I thought that villian would never be able to put me on a hand, and would think that I was full of [censored], and would call with AK.

Meh?

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are sure he has AK and you are pretty sure he will call because he thinks you are FOS

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the reason behind the all-in raise. Doesn't it look like a blatant steal?

[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the turn if you think the villian likes his hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I am nearly positive that he will bet, and then I can trap a bunch of the donks in the middle. If I bet, he is likely to raise them out.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
You should definitely bet the flop in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
CLEARLY this is the standard line, and I would do this 95% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
If the Preflop raiser has a big pair, you want to get all of his chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, but I also want chips from the donks.

[ QUOTE ]
he can't really fold his overpair here and is likely to raise you

[/ QUOTE ]
Which makes the donks fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Checking wouldn't be so bad except that if he has AK, you've just given free cards to a bunch of donks that play any two sOOted.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that he has a big pair here 80% of the time, but obviously, free cards suck bad here.

[ QUOTE ]
. Hell, if the game is really that loose, you might bet your set, get raised by Villain and get another call by a flush draw and end up tripling up on the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
While this is certainly possible, I think it's more likely when I've got more donks stuck with crappy hands.

[ QUOTE ]
There are times to slowplay sets, but loose multiway action you gotta bet that.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this the vast majority of the time.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
i might just call and try to checkraise on the river, but i love to river checkraise people(donkeys), so this may not work with a smarter player, or if he checks behind

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he checks behind too often for this line. I probably don't check raise on the river nearly enough, though. Almost never.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to look like you're trying to convince villain through you maniac actions that you are bluffing, and trying to induce a call that way, since you have been fastplaying all strong hands

[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly right.

[ QUOTE ]
Another line looks to ck/raise him on turn, then lead river

[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer the all in on the turn because he might still call with draws/weaker hands.

[TrailofTears]

What kind of a raise was the big one you pulled on him before? Was it an AI raise?

I prefer a standard raise here, but I do understand your reasoning, as a standard raise might look too strong.

I like it overall, especially given the history you gave us.

-T

[TrailofTears]

Nice fleshed-out thought process.

How would villain react to you leading into his made hand on the turn? I think there is a fair chance that you will get raised, and be able to get more in there.

-T

[JKratzer]

I like the flop check. Too bad he checked behind, but that's an acceptable risk I think. On the turn I only like your check if you very sure he's going to bet (i.e. when he moves for chips he's not faking.) I guess the allin is okay, but I don't think a decent villian is calling with AK, unless its AK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Here I think I'd call the turn and move in on the river, as long as no diamond hits it'll look like a missed draw and get more action (maybe?). Overall, well played.

JKratzer

[Big_Jim]

Villian goes into the tank, staring me down.

I stand statueque for about a minute, during which villian is agonizing. He starts muttering to himself, and I lean back in my chair, confident.

He looks at me and says "You've gotta be on a bluff."
I wink at him.

He calls, drawing dead, with A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of a raise was the big one you pulled on him before? Was it an AI raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup.

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer a standard raise here, but I do understand your reasoning, as a standard raise might look too strong.

[/ QUOTE ]
I considered a standard raise, but thought that I could get more value from the all-in. Villian can convince himself I'm on a semi-bluff or convince himself that he has outs on the turn... not on the river.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice fleshed-out thought process.

How would villain react to you leading into his made hand on the turn? I think there is a fair chance that you will get raised, and be able to get more in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it is fairly likely that villian will put me on a weakish hand if I bet into him. And will likely raise... again I'm more concerned here about picking up the donk limpers. I'm not sure if I'm overvaluing having them in the pot... but I still think that it is VERY likely that they would come along for a bet, but not for a bet and a raise. Perhaps this thinking is flawed.

I thought that if only one comes along, he still might be able to put me on a move, and if two or more come along, then he'll likely be able to fold... but I make up the money from the donks, anyway.

Let me again stress how unusual it was for none of the limpers to get involved after the flop.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn I only like your check if you very sure he's going to bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I was probably 80% confident in this read. He would sit up real straight and look around the table a lot when he was ready to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the allin is okay, but I don't think a decent villian is calling with AK, unless its A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif .

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You don't think this looks like a bluff? I doubt villian thought that I had that good a line on his play, and he also probably thinks that I view him as weak-tight. This might not have been well explained in OP.

[ QUOTE ]
Here I think I'd call the turn and move in on the river, as long as no diamond hits it'll look like a missed draw and get more action (maybe?).

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm.. interesting. It's probably pretty close, but I think the turn raise is just about as convincing as the river bet, except that I don't have to worry about a scare card chasing him out, and lets him call if he has a draw.

[flawless_victory]

first, i dont think this is "non-standard"... this is the most standard hand in the history of the 2+2 forums...
next, i dont think this looks a bluff... it looks like a hand that beats AK and AK has the easiest laydown here, however, i think a live 2/5 player will fold AK here almost never. like .03%.

[Big_Jim]

Really? This is standard? I thought that everybody and their mother would say lead the flop, lead the turn if you didn't lead the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
it looks like a hand that beats AK and AK has the easiest laydown here

[/ QUOTE ]
Without the specific pre-flop and turn reads (which I was assuming opponent didn't know I had) what hands check this flop twice that beat AK? Especially from a player known to fast play big hands?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? This is standard? I thought that everybody and their mother would say lead the flop, lead the turn if you didn't lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
leading either would be truly stupid... like folding KK UTG stupid... just ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it looks like a hand that beats AK and AK has the easiest laydown here

[/ QUOTE ]
Without the specific pre-flop and turn reads (which I was assuming opponent didn't know I had) what hands check this flop twice that beat AK? Especially from a player known to fast play big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]all of them.

[chuddo]

jim, i think this hand would have been better served with the ol' "role-reversal" style post.

i think if i am villain i can bet 200 here on the turn and safely dump it to a push someone that covers me, as it is an easily sniffed-out set, or Axs that turned Aces up.

if i have the AK and didn't continue on this flop, and I turn an A, I will be betting definitely, but folding to your turn move.

but as flawless stated, most live 2/5 players are not capable of folding this, unless they are the inherently super-tight.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really? This is standard? I thought that everybody and their mother would say lead the flop, lead the turn if you didn't lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
leading either would be truly stupid... like folding KK UTG stupid... just ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it looks like a hand that beats AK and AK has the easiest laydown here

[/ QUOTE ]
Without the specific pre-flop and turn reads (which I was assuming opponent didn't know I had) what hands check this flop twice that beat AK? Especially from a player known to fast play big hands?

[/ QUOTE ]all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this rather surprising.

You take this line against an unknown?

Keep in mind there are 4 people to act before I do.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
but as flawless stated, most live 2/5 players are not capable of folding this, unless they are the inherently super-tight.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given this.. is my line the best one?

[chuddo]

your reasoning behind checking the flop is fine if as you said he is highly likely to have a big pair here and bet, and you can both help tie him to the pot and hope some donkeys come along.

the only reason this is acceptable here is because with 6 people in a raised pot, the pot is unnaturally large enough for you to get a lot of chips in it on later streets. you are not burdened with having to build a big pot, its already there.

so after the flop is checked through you can put him squarely on AK, and you turn a gin card, non diamond A/K.

when none of the donkey herd bets the turn and its checked to you, you concern is now primarily on stacking him. if any of the limpers are bad and can't resist this big pot when they hit top pair with A9, then that is an added bonus.

as flawless and i stated, a competent player should get away from AK here to a big check-raise, so why do it? lead into him, hope he raises, and if not you can still lead the river big because the pot was bloated.

if he is even halfway decent, then he is likely aware just how transparent his AK is after checking the flop behind, so he knows you know AK is a very likely holding for him, yet you CR him anyway.

unless you are playing at a level with him of "we both know you have AK, so am i intentionally moving you off it, or am i valueing you because i dont think you will fold it", which doesn't seem like it is the case.

like i said, i think this hand would have been more interesting to post from the villans perspective.

---
to wit:
"tons of donkeys limp to me on the button with AKs. i hit it a lick to 50 straight (10xBB, because they love to call). it is no surprise that we are 6 to the flop for a pot of 300.

flop is 823dd. everyone checks to me, i opt to not continue and check behind. free turn for 6 players.

turn Ao. i turn TPTK, checked to the solid player in the cutoff that...
now what do i do if CO
a) leads into me. call/raise/fold?
b) checks to me. bet/check?
b1) checks to me and then CR me allin. call/fold?
----

had you posted this, i think you could have gathered from peoples responses which would be the optimal line for CO holding a set.

[mgsimpleton]

no offense but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what went on in this hand. you are directly in front of CO and want to trap dead money. On flop he checks and screams AK. turn A gets there and once again you want to trap dead money and know you can now because he has written on his forehead that he has AK. If I'm on button with AK, this all seems very obvious.

that being said it was definitely the best way to go about things, sucks you couldn't pick up more money and good thing villain was a donk. that's the thing about those tight preflop rocks - they rarely lay down TPTK or overpairs since they play so few f*cking hands.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
when none of the donkey herd bets the turn and its checked to you, you concern is now primarily on stacking him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps this is where my logic was flawed. I suppose having it checked through them twice greatly reduces the chance that a donkey comes along for the ride.

Since I have to get a donkey and a half to come along to make up for the money in stacking villian... it's probably not worth it

[ QUOTE ]
if any of the limpers are bad and can't resist this big pot when they hit top pair with A9, then that is an added bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]
Man.. I really thought this was likely, though. I don't think the donks would have folded an A here... but maybe I'm underestimating them. Although, I did see some horrendous calldowns throughout the night.

[ QUOTE ]
as flawless and i stated, a competent player should get away from AK here to a big check-raise, so why do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Meh.. I didn't think a competent player would get away. Apparently my line is much more transparent that I thought it was.... I thought I was representing a bluff fairly well.

[ QUOTE ]
like i said, i think this hand would have been more interesting to post from the villans perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you're right. Too bad I can't just repost it.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm on button with AK, this all seems very obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any way I stack you with AK here? Lead the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
they rarely lay down TPTK or overpairs since they play so few f*cking hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
God bless, 'em. They make my car payments.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm on button with AK, this all seems very obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any way I stack you with AK here? Lead the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive played with vanessa a bit and I gauruntee you she bets the flop, if you checkraise she folds, if you call and stop and go turn ace she makes a read and moves in or folds. she might call and then call the river (esp. in a 2-5 game) but she's good so she probably folds. then again given what she / we have seen in typical 2-5 games (and similar stakes) tptk is so good vs the bulk majority of them you could get paid off. if you check she probably checks the turn and callsa river bet on some cards and folds to others, if you check again she bets and if gets checkraised there she looks at you really funny and says "you suck"then folds.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they rarely lay down TPTK or overpairs since they play so few f*cking hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
God bless, 'em. They make my car payments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah, that said I do like your line alot, and yeah, fairly standard. nh!

[kirkt]

So I've only gotten interested in NLH ring games since I saw how many donkeys were playing it at the new rooms in Atlantic City this summer- I was busy learning how to slaughter low-limit games, which casinos around me spread almost exclusively. This post has been a great read and I have a question for you all that (IMO) highlights a necessary skill to pick up when you move from small stakes limit tables to no-limit tables.

When would the villain be correct in making a call?

It's obvious there are some situations where it would be beyond the pale to fold. For example, if Jim's all in raise was only fifteen dollars more, or you had frequently seen the villain do this with any ace and you had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Now of course there's no way I'd check that flop with a flush draw etc, etc. But what do you do with AK on that turn? What do you do in response to the all-in?

In short, what are your calling parameters if you're the villain in this hand? Where is it a tough descision to lay it down? Nowhere?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
first, i dont think this is "non-standard"... this is the most standard hand in the history of the 2+2 forums...


[/ QUOTE ]

you have got to be joking

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Ive played with vanessa a bit and I gauruntee you she bets the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
You think she bets the flop with AK no diamond draw into 5 people when she's almost certain to get a call?

Seems like a steep price to pay to clean up possible 3-6 outs.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ive played with vanessa a bit and I gauruntee you she bets the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
You think she bets the flop with AK no diamond draw into 5 people when she's almost certain to get a call?

Seems like a steep price to pay to clean up possible 3-6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's amazing how often people fold to her.

and yeah, I think she'd stick a bet in here, although I wouldn't... maybe she wouldny, 5 way does seem like lighting money on fire. perhaps she'll comment? =)

[Lucky]

I like the flop check to trap donks. I say screw and bet turn, even if i have read he'll bet. That way he may raise with slick as opposed to potentially getting away from it on your c/r.

Addtionally, as everyone has checked again on turn, they're probably not very trappable at this point.

[mgsimpleton]

bobbo, no hablo poker... you know this.

anyway yes betting with AK there on the flop given suckiness of players is like lighting money on fire. unless you have an ubertight image and you fire a lot, which i've done at times and gotten even donks with 99 to lay down. however i think it is so obvious when a tight player checks on an undercard flop that he has AK that i owuld nothave bet this turn most likely.

i realize there are draws and whatever but if i bet this turn i feel like it would suck to get c/r. so i might check behind on the turn and value bet a blank river if checked to or just call a bet into me. i think that's safer given how obviouis your hand is given the flop check and how many people are in the hand. plus you get more value from weaker aces. like if a donk bets into you on riv you can prob raise/fold to 3 bet, whereas if solid leads you just call.

i am a big fan of checking even in raised pots in situations like this where sure there are draws (actually really just diamonds and maaaybe gut shot straight is out there)... i'm not too worried about draws especially since no one has taken a stab so i'll just check here to maximize value/minimize damage.

whaddya guys think about THAT one?

[Big_Jim]

nh

(Sorry about your AA =\)