i fastplay acesup

[TStoneMBD]

from one of my 30/60 videos

BB is 30/7/1.2

i openraise in the CO with A9

Flop is A94r

BB bets, i raise instead of waiting till the turn hoping to induce action from another ace.


how bad/reasonable/awful/terrible/awesome is this?

[kidcolin]

I like it. Some ace hands will 3-bet you, some will c/r you on the turn. If he's donking he might not bet the turn anyway, since he can expect a raise from a large range of hands (aces for value, some PPs for free showdown/value).

[Lmn55d]

I like. Also this line is more likely to get call downs from a pair of 9s or 4s. Additionally ,a lot of times they check the turn in fright.

[Jeff W]

Unless you expect him to bet into you again on the turn after you raise the flop, I like waiting for the turn to raise. I don't think a pair of aces<AQ will 3-bet or check-raise, if that. Also, he could be bluffing and you gain an extra bet by waiting the times he continues his bluff on the turn.

[Lmn55d]

If he checkraises you I would like waiting till turn because now it is almost definite he will bet turn, plus you get one more BB from a bluff.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you expect him to bet into you again on the turn after you raise the flop, I like waiting for the turn to raise. I don't think a pair of aces<AQ will 3-bet or check-raise, if that. Also, he could be bluffing and you gain an extra bet by waiting the times he continues his bluff on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

i picked this hand out of one of tstone's video because i told him i thought he should have called the flop in preparation for a turn raise. i still think this is probably correct unless the villian has Ax.

rj

[B Dids]

This is one of those spots where PT numbers probably don't tell you nearly enough and knowing how he'll play TPGK and TPNK does (tell you nearly enough, or like... more than enough).

I think waiting till the turn here is a good default without more information.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]

I think waiting till the turn here is a good default without more information.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TStoneMBD]

ok guys, i see i messed this one up bad. once baronzeus says "call" you know that raising cant possibly be right.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
ok guys, i see i messed this one up bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that bad, it's just suboptimal.

[kiddo]

Why are people saying we should raise turn? I honestly thought that raising turn here is something only lowlimit players do?

I have very hard finding a scenario where raising turn is best we can do as long as BB is anywhere near a thinking player.

Of course we have to attack on flop or river? (I think flopraise is best, cause he will call down with 9, but very often checkcall 9s on river if we just call).

[mperich]

I have been waiting until the turn to raise a lot more hands lately. I think it has helped me a fair bit in midstakes gamesas it really seems to diminish the power of the flop c/r for my opponents. (Also it can help to punish pesky flop donkbetters and make it harder for them to define your hand with their donkbets, especially if they are thinking players)

With the smoothcall c/r, raise turn line against a thinking player: Yes it screams strength, but if you notice a player folding to it, it becomes a valuable bluff (albeit a bit expensive) because a thinking player can lay down tp with an ok kicker to this line if they think you are tight/solid. Especially if you are making it into a freeshowdown play this can be extremely valuable as a semibluff. Basically, if you think this line is only correct against poor or lowlimit players, it's because you are not varying your play enough, IMO.

-Mike

[Lmn55d]

I agree with calling a flop checkraise to raise the turn, but in this hand BB donked the flop. I find that a lot of time if he's bluffing he just gives up on the turn and if he has a 9 or 4 or even sometiems a weak ace he will check the turn.

I agree, however, that the wait-till-turn raise is a powerful weapon in shorthanded midlimit games, but I don't think it's for the reason you stated. Yes, if you frequently wait until the turn to raise your turn bluff/semibluff/free showdown raises have more folding equity. However, I think the effectiveness of waiting until the turn is a product of how frequently people semibluff and/or raise for a free showdown in these games, as opposed to the other way around. People often don't fold a worse hand to the turn raise for this reason.

[SparkyDog]

Here's a benefit no one has pointed out yet.

When he has a lower two pair or a big ace, he'll often 3bet a flop raise and bet the turn. Then maybe slowdown after you raise the turn too. Or he'll C/R the turn and you can 3bet or call down. Either way it's a lot more money than letting him shut down to a turn raise. You can do this because you beat the vast majority of his range.

When you only have one pair, it's best to raise the turn because it will keep him from getting a fuckton of bets in with a bigger kicker or two pair. He can always threebet though, but then you can fold because he's representing more strength when you're also doing so. You may not quite be overrepresenting your hand per se, but you certainly aren't underrepresenting it and he doesn't care.

It's a lot harder to 3bet a turn raise with two pair than it is to flat call a raise and checkraise the turn. But calling down with two pair after the turn is easy.

So you make it hard for him to get in 3bets with the best hand and easy to call down after getting 3-4.5 BB's into the pot postflop when he's behind.

EDIT: In the frequent case that he only has one pair, the difference between these two lines is a paltry .5BB's, assuming he ALWAYS leads the turn after you flat call the flop. Which is not a small assumption. But you make a lot more when you both flop bigger hands by fastplaying. And you save a little more when he outflops you.

[SparkyDog]

1) It's hard to dick up top two pair.
2) Raising the turn all the time is way too transparent. So if for deception purposes only you should raise this flop some of the time.

[mperich]

Blah I dont know how to read. Yes, we werent checkraised...I wait until the turn probably a litle more than I raise the flop here, but I like to vary it a lot. Maybe 60/40ish.

As for the smoothcall/wait till turn line, sorry my post wasnt very clear. I agree that it gains a lot of its power from value betting (I will often use it with MPGK and up depending on the board). I was tyring to point out that if this line is getting too many folds (since kiddo said this line is no good against anywhere near a thinking player), then it is because you are not varying your play enough, or using the freeshowdown enough. Altho, I realize he was talking about smoothcalling a donkbet and raising the turn, but I think the same concepts apply.

-Mike

[Lmn55d]

ah yea, cool. Your point about it being a great counter to constant flop checkraisers is a good one. I know at 10/20 it seems everyone gets a hard on at the thought of checkraising the flop. A strategy that reduces the frequency that people checkraise you on the flop is probably a good one because so often those flop checkraises put you to a tough decision either on the flop or the turn.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it. Some ace hands will 3-bet you, some will c/r you on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

and even more will just call down or fold.

[ QUOTE ]
If he's donking he might not bet the turn anyway, since he can expect a raise from a large range of hands (aces for value, some PPs for free showdown/value).

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a good point, although it's pretty rare they don't continue here.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
i picked this hand out of one of tstone's video because i told him i thought he should have called the flop in preparation for a turn raise. i still think this is probably correct unless the villian has Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? Ax is the ideal hand for waiting for the turn. he's always betting the turn and he's never folding in fear of a better ace in this steal situation.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok guys, i see i messed this one up bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that bad, it's just suboptimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's bad considering that raising is the worst play possible (since folding isn't a realistic option)

[ALL1N]

Who is this joker??

PS Welcome back, where've you been?

[maxpowers21]

I like to keep these situations as simple as possible; one general tendency i think everyone should account for is how aggresive this player is.

If he's passive, wait to raise the turn, his range for 3betting flop hands will go down significantly.

If he's aggresive and will tend to bet-3bet hands on the flop then clearly raising the flop is better.

I think these decisions are in bulk dependent on an opponet's aggresion, and at my tables i tend to play against more passive players, which is why the "wait till the turn" line is the standard play.

Most players here will donkbet the flop with a draw or a weak made hand though, so i will tend to wait till the turn to raise.

[SparkyDog]

If he calls down its .5BB difference in the lines. If he folds, he's probably also folding to a turn raise. So I don't think I agree with your criticism of raising the flop...

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls down its .5BB difference in the lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure is.

[ QUOTE ]
If he folds, he's probably also folding to a turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't really see the point you're trying to make here. if he folds the flop we lose 1BB from a likely turn bet.

[SparkyDog]

My point was made in my first post in this thread. It has some stuff I don't think was mentioned in this thread and nobody responded to it...

1) When he's got a big hand I think you'll make a lot more.
2) Most of the time it's only a .5BB difference if he calls down.
3) If he folds at some point, popping the turn only makes one BB more, assuming he bets the Turn every time he bets the flop, which he won't. So the gain in these instances is < 1BB.

[paco]

[ QUOTE ]
My point was made in my first post in this thread. It has some stuff I don't think was mentioned in this thread and nobody responded to it...

1) When he's got a big hand I think you'll make a lot more.
2) Most of the time it's only a .5BB difference if he calls down.
3) If he folds at some point, popping the turn only makes one BB more , assuming he bets the Turn every time he bets the flop, which he won't. So the gain in these instances is < 1BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

One BB more is a lot.

Something TStone did not mention however, is that the BB 3 bet him, not just called and donked flop. For this reason, I think a turn continuation bet is likely, and thus waiting until the turn is clearly better than raising the flop.

One thing no one has mentioned is waiting until the river. The chance that he has a big hand HU is very low. I think most would agree that the most likely hand is a big ace that will pay off your turn raise and river bet. What if he has less than an ace though?--this is just as likely, and will result in him shutting down as happened here.

Waht about waiting until the river to raise? I guess you lose one where he would have paid off a turn raise and river bet but by you waiting he check calls the river. But then again, you gain one when he calls the river raise (more likely) when he woudl have folded to the turn raise. Sklansky talks about this in HFAP on pg. 147.

[tolbiny]

BB is 30/7/1.2

Players like this don't usually three bet the flop (as a default read) with Ax- they often bet then go into showdown mode with a weak ace. The baord is so dry, A4 and 49 are your only two pair options that will three bet you.

The thing is though with a 7pfr he might be the type to smooth call ATo + preflop and then bet/three bet the flop with them, if hes this type then its not such a bad play, but if he would normally three bet AK + AQ preflop i start to lean back toward caling the flop to pop the turn.

A final consideration is weather he will try the ol' check call the turn, donk the river play after this with a weak ace. Then you are in for some extra ca$h if he's this type.

I guess its just player dependant like others have said.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
Something TStone did not mention however, is that the BB 3 bet him, not just called and donked flop

[/ QUOTE ]

IF this is true it changes a hell of a lot.

[paco]

Yes, I just double checked. 35:20 into the session.

[oreogod]

Depends...I like it, but I also like waiting for the turn. But I think this turn gets checked to u pretty often (in which he could check/call or check/fold)...depends on the player (Ive gone to far to go back and look at the stats).

[augie00]

this is my line probably close to 95% of the time.

[bobbyi]

Does everyone who says to wait until the turn here do the same with AK?

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Does everyone who says to wait until the turn here do the same with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope so. I'm not sure what line I like, I think I tend to raise the flop a lot here though.

[New001]

Raising the flop is what I do most of the time. I think you'll find people more likely to call you down with a lower pair if you raise the flop, and also more likely to 3-bet you on the flop with a hand like AJ-AK.

If you wait until the turn every time, or even most of the time, I think you let the big pocket pairs off way too easily. This is especially true if you'll often raise less than top pair on the flop.

[Nietzsche]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's passive, wait to raise the turn, his range for 3betting flop hands will go down significantly.

If he's aggresive and will tend to bet-3bet hands on the flop then clearly raising the flop is better.


[/ QUOTE ]
Good points. Another reason why I prefer these lines is that, strangely passives tend to continuation bet more often than aggressives in a spot like this.

i like the turn better for two reasons,
the bet is bigger which equals more money, and if he does infact have a high ace, and his kicker doesnt connt, and it gets capped bigger pot.