2-4 online hand

[SoBeDude]

I'm in the BB with 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

action: UTG fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, UTG+3 raises, MP Fold, MP calls, fold, fold, SB folds, to me. I assume UTG 1 and 2 will call. so I'm getting 9:1 pot odds on my call, with small suited connectors in a bad location.

I call. (So how am I doing so far?)

Flop:
8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Well, I have a backdoor pathetically low flush draw and an equally pathetically low pair. It this enough to see the turn?

I check, check, check, raisor bets, call, I call, call, fold. 4 to see the turn.

Turn is 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif
Thats good. I just picked up an OESD (open-ended straight draw), which I like better than picking up a scrawny flush. And I still have my pair of 4's.

Should I check-raise here? check, check, bet, call, call, call.

River: the beautiful 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
I made my straight. I check hoping/assuming better will bet one more time. everyone checks around. I take it down.

I never raised this hand. Is this pathetic?

Hand history shows:
A2 for a pair of twos
TT for the PF raiser
A8clubs (with button) for a pair of 8's

How did they play?

I know if A8 had raised the flop with TP/TK I would have folded for 2 bets.

-Scott

[J.R.]

I would fold pre-flop, as you have bad position, you can only make five, not six straights with you suited connector, you will often be drawing to the smaller end of a straight and your pair outs will often be conterfitted. Plus you have 4 high. But I like to play tightly from the blinds. Have you seen the the two EP limpers limp re-raise?

The flop appears close, but the two hearts means not all of your outs will always be good. I would fold here, expecially if the two limpers would try to check-raise a big draw here to trap everyone for multiple bets.

I would check call the turn, as I don't think the 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif and A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif are outs for you.

Bet the river and hope to get calls in between you and the pre-flop raiser. If you were planning to check-raise you would be shutting out all the opponents between you and the likely bettor on the river, the pre-flop raiser. And the check-raise is a strong move, so you may not even get called by the pre-flop raiser.

[asdf1234]

I would fold this preflop every single time unless it was a family pot and it was guaranteed that there would be no reraise, which is not the case. 43 suited or unsuited is a trash hand. If you get to see the flop for free, fine, but I wouldn't pay. Not to mention the fact that you're out of position for the rest of the hand.

On the flop, I would fold, you have backdoor possibilities plus a baby pair, but because of the flush draw you don't have as many clean outs as you would like, plus from your position, you may be facing a reraise.

I would definitely not checkraise the turn. I might be wrong on the math, but if you raise, you don't have proper odds to take off another card. making your straight is about 5:1 and that's assuming all your outs are clean which they potentially are not, if you drop to 6 outs, then it's much worse, slightly less than 7:1. Not to mention that a 6 gives you the ignorant end of the straight so, it's quite possible that you're drawing to only 3 clean outs on this hand.

I'd probably just bet the river because I doubt that anyone's going to bet into a double straight board when people have been hanging around. Plus if someone has a 7 you don't want to face a third bet coming back at you.

[yct]

Your play is fine except for missing a bet on the river.

[Net Warrior]

7-1 pre-flop (probably 9-1 so you didn't expect a re-raise from either limper), easy call. 11-1 on the flop to your 4 clean outs + backdoor, you gotta call here. I don't think a semi-bluff C/R will pick up the pot with a flush draw out there, so calling the turn seems best. Bet the river because more players will call than will bet here. Anyway, that's how see things.

[rigoletto]

Bet the flop!

[SoBeDude]

I would check call the turn, as I don't think the 6 and A are outs for you.

Which is what I did. But I do have a decent number of outs. 6 clean straight outs (ignoring the A & 6 of hearts), 2 clean 4's for trips, 2 clean 3's for 2 pair. thats 10 clean outs. not too bad.

Bet the river and hope to get calls in between you and the pre-flop raiser. If you were planning to check-raise you would be shutting out all the opponents between you and the likely bettor on the river, the pre-flop raiser. And the check-raise is a strong move, so you may not even get called by the pre-flop raiser.

Excellent point. trying to check-raise the river was stupid.

Thanks J.R.

-Scott

[Ed Miller]

I would have called preflop.

Assuming that I didn't expect a raise behind me, I would have called on the flop.

I would have called on the turn.

I would have bet the river... you don't really have good reason to fear a 7, and your opponents will almost certainly not bet their one pair hands on a board like this... perhaps they should, but they generally won't. Some opponents also routinely fold one pair hands to unexpected river bets on boards like this... hopefully you can figure out what you should do against these opponents.

[SoBeDude]

Really? Bet the flop?

Why? This isn't 5-10. I'm definitely going to get called. the guy in MP (acting last) will surely raise with his TT. What is your thinking process?

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Wow.

Is this one of those rare cases where call, call, call is the right play!??

Its almost impossible to believe!!

You're right, of course. not betting the river was poor play on my part. It was all wrong for trying for a check-raise.

No I didn't fear a 7. Mostly because I missed the fact that it made a bigger straight. oops.

Thanks

-Scott

[rigoletto]

If you plan to call anyway you might aswell bet out:

How likely is it that this flop hit anybody?

You could get it HU against AK!

Hmm... thinking about I'm not to crazy about this play myself

[SoBeDude]

Why would the preflop raiser, holding TT, not reraise me on the flop? With such a low board, his overpair is begging for a raise. The last thing I want is to be facing a raise here on the flop.

Hmm... thinking about I'm not to crazy about this play myself

So now I'm lost, are you changing you mind about the play and think check-call is better?

-Scott

[ResidentParanoid]

Pre-flop call is fine.

Flop call is marginal, but still ok.

Turn call is easy.

River check is horrendous.

[rigoletto]

So now I'm lost, are you changing you mind about the play and think check-call is better? Yes, I was wrong. If it was 3-way I'd probably bet out, but then I wouldn't be in the pot to begin with.

On a sidenote: Why would the preflop raiser, holding TT, not reraise me on the flop? You can't take opponents hole cards into consideratio when you analyze your own flop play.

[Ed Miller]

Is this one of those rare cases where call, call, call is the right play!??

You have a very marginal draw and are only proceeding at all because the pot is relatively big. You have virtually no hopes of getting a better hand to fold through aggression. Why would you ever raise here?

[SoBeDude]

Well yes, but when looking at the board, what preflop raiser would not raise my flop bet? what is on that board that he'd be afraid of? Its all low cards. And if he's afraid of the flush he better raise me!

-Scott

[Ed Miller]

[SoBeDude]

I agree completely. I had no desire to raise.

I just found it odd that call, call, call is probably the correct play.

-Scott

[Homer]

You played it fine with the exception of the river, where you should bet.

-- Homer

[dirty_dan]

Actually I don't think you can count the two 3's as clean outs as there's probably someone with an ace out there.

[SoBeDude]

Ack!

very true. oops.

[anatta]

Pre-flop: Sometimes I fold this. Most of the time, however, I call here, thinking, "if its wrong, it ain't wrong by much, damn, I've been folding a lot, lets see a flop." Actually, rather than looking for an excuse to play like me, you should look for passive post-flop opponents who like to chase in big pots.

"Well, I have a backdoor pathetically low flush draw and an equally pathetically low pair. It this enough to see the turn?"

This is other side of the, "I bet the turn, I think he is on a flush draw, so maybe he folds..." I am surprised at how often this comes up here. Nobody folds a flush draw for one bet, and I don't remember ever folding a flush draw for one bet.

On the flop, you are even money to make a big hand. No, its not the nuts, but you shouldn't be considering folding.

[SoBeDude]

Hi Anatta,

Thanks for responding.

On the flop, you are even money to make a big hand. No, its not the nuts, but you shouldn't be considering folding.

And I didn't consider folding (but I thought after maybe I should have considered it).

But can you explain how you feel I'm even money to make a big hand? I'd like to hear your thoughts here.

Oh one thing I didn't mention is one of my opponents berated my play after the hand. That got me thinking I should post it.

thanks,

-Scott

[anatta]

Well maybe "big hand" was a bit of an overstatement but you have 9 outs to a flush and another 5 outs to two pair or better. Thats 14 and with 2 to come you will hit around 50% of the time.

[asdf1234]

He did not have 4 to a flush on the flop, he only had a backdoor worst possible flush draw. His 2 pair and straight outs are not clean. On the flop he had second pair, worst possible kicker with backdoor flush and straight possibilities. Far from a big hand if you ask me and I think your 50% calculation assumes he had a 4 flush on the flop which he did not.

[anatta]

My bad. I read it wrong.

[vegthe1st]

Your call before the flop is fine, along with the way the hand was played. I wouldn't have raised with your hand, but the T-T and pair of 8's should have definetly been raising and re-raising to protect their hands in that situation. What were they thinking?!?! /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[SoBeDude]

Yes, their play was horriffic. I would not have stayed in the hand had they been aggressive.

-Scott

[Sarge85]

Fold Pre-Flop-

At this point your actually hoping for a straight over a flush. If you flush, there's a good chance your flush is going to be beat. (IMO).

I think you played the turn fine.

I'd bet the river